Hi folks,

As Adventists, we have had a long history, mainly supported by the writings of EGW aginst the reading of fiction. I personally feel that her admonitions have to be read in the cultural context when they were written. But with that said. I'm curious on your take on the genre of sci-fi?

I am presently reading lots of "alternative-history" fiction e.g. what if the South won the war or the Nazis or an alien race were to interfere with history etc. The author best known for this sub-genre is Harry Turtledove, a former history professor at UCLA.

Alex

I love sci-fi. To me, it is the doorway to limitless ideas and possibilities; a sci-fi author is able to explore the way he/she envisions the human response to "what if" situations.

I don't like the "dragons and robots" type of sci-fi, but I do like time-travel books (mostly going back in time).

ABELISLE

I am not in to science fiction

dgrimm60

RUDYWOOFS

I AGREE about not wanting to read about dragons
and robots

dgrimm60

it's not Seattle Slew, that's for sure!

I have so much catching up to do with spiritual things, reading the Bible, Ellen White, our pioneers, and other good books, I no longer have time to read fiction. But I do have a house full of it though.

I have the Holy Spirits counsel upon all fiction and novel reading for those who are interested:
April 12, 1904 Read and Heed

The world is flooded with books that might better be consumed than circulated. Books upon Indian warfare and similar topics, published and circulated as a money-making scheme, might better never be read. The heart-sickening relation of crimes and atrocities has a bewitching power over many youth, exciting in them the desire to bring themselves into notice by the most wicked deeds. There are many works more strictly historical whose influence is little better. The enormities, the cruelties, the licentious practices, portrayed in these writings, have acted as leaven in many minds, leading to the commission of similar acts. Books that delineate the satanic practises of human beings are giving publicity to evil works. The horrible details of crime and misery need not to be lived over again, and none who believe the truth for this time should act a part in perpetuating their memory. {YI, April 12, 1904 par. 1}

Love stories and frivolous, exciting tales constitute another class of books that is a curse to every reader. The author may attach a good moral, and all through his work may weave religious sentiments; yet in most cases Satan is but clothed in angel robes, the more effectually to deceive and allure. The mind is affected in a great degree by that upon which it feeds. The readers of frivolous, exciting tales become unfitted for the duties lying before them. They live an unreal life, and have no desire to search the Scriptures, to feed upon the heavenly manna. The mind is enfeebled, and loses its power to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny. {YI, April 12, 1904 par. 2}

I have been instructed that the youth are exposed to the greatest peril from improper reading. Satan is constantly leading both the young and those of mature age to be charmed with worthless stories. Could a large share of the books published be consumed, a plague would be stayed that is doing a fearful work in weakening the mind and corrupting the heart. None are so confirmed in right principles as to be secure from temptation. All this trashy reading should be resolutely discarded.
Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, April 12, 1904 par. 3} "Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." (Ellen G. White, Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 383)

Myths and Fairy Tales.--In the education of children and youth fairy tales, myths, and fictitious stories are now given a large place. Books of this character are used in schools, and they are to be found in many homes. How can Christian parents permit their children to use books so filled with falsehood? When the children ask the meaning of stories so contrary to the teaching of their parents, the answer is that the stories are not true; but this does not do away with the evil results of their use. The ideas presented in these books mislead the children. They impart false views of life and beget and foster a desire for the unreal. . . . {AH 413.3}


Never should books containing a perversion of truth be placed in the hands of children or youth. Let not our children, in the very process of obtaining an education, receive ideas that will prove to be seeds of sin.
414
{AH 413.4}

Although the prophet here is mostly addressing the youth, the purpose is to educate them in truth before the habit of fiction reading can be formed. Common sense also tells us the effect may be greatly magnified by the long-formed habits of adults. Sometimes we think our selves overly wise, that we can do some questionable things and it will not affect us because we "know the truth."

But in reality,many times we do not know why we think and act as we do, as no alarms will go off telling us we are in danger. The effects of novel reading, all theatrics, deviant music styles with drums, will lead the persons one small step at a time in the wrong direction. This is a striking example of why God in His love and desire to save us, gives pointed and plain warnings in the Bible and the SOP.

Satan has had 6000 years to study the human mind to develop deceptive ways to link it with his. There are a few of the ways.

I don't read a whole lot of science fiction, but I do like making up my own sci-fi stories sometimes.

Hey Richard, need some help with a book burning?

I have an Environmental Science 100 Textbook I may introduce to the flames, but it did cost me $92.00. I did get a chance to post comments against the Darwinism and evolution in the book, and some of the other scientific "assumptions," as well as the essays that I have to write.

Last week, I saw a 1909 edition of the Origin of Species in a thrift store probably worth several hundred dollars as an antique collectible.The only thought in my head was to buy the book ($1.00) and then burn it.

But then I realized that truth stands on its own. But I can't help but think what would happen if a lot of "questionable" books would just go away.

Sorceries are anything that medicates the mind in some negative way; books can do that. That's why we should meditate on God's word and nothing else. In with good, out with the bad!

Why did you ask for others' opinions if you already had opinions of your own? Just curious. I feel as if I was asked to "confess" something only to turn around and have my hand slapped for such "confession".

Seriously, why did you ask for others' opinions?

I think the question is, "WHEN did Steve ask for others' opinions?" Unless I'm misunderstanding you... I think you're confusing two different people.

You are absolutely correct, SivartM, I did have these two posters confused in my mind. My apologies, Steve Billiter.

Hi abelisle,

You asked "I'm curious on your take on the genre of sci-fi?"

Personally I think, if it's not the truth it's not from God. If it's not from God it's a waste of precious time!

As a new Adventist I am constanly being told that the signs all point to Jesus returning soon. I don't know about you but when He comes I certainly don't want to be one of the people holding a book that promotes untruth. Do you?

Also, as adventists it's very important to promote proper Christian values according to God's ideals not our own ideas. Talking the talk is not enough...we need to walk the walk too!

Blessings to you,
Jodie

No problem, Aubrey, I may have done that myself in the past!

Amen Jodie,reading fiction, or sci fi may be a worse offender because of the high levels of fantasy, at the least will waste precious time for which we are stewards, accountable for our time. It is the most precious gift, as it is life itself.

Sinful ideas and plot lines are always present in such books and we have a clear command from God:

Psalms 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before my eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.


Abuse of the Mind
842. The mind which is allowed to be absorbed in story reading is being ruined. The practice results in air-castle building and a sickly sentimentalism. The imagination becomes diseased, and there is a vague unrest, a strange appetite for unwholesome mental food. Thousands are today in insane asylums whose minds became unbalanced by novel reading.--S.
of T., 1884, No. 41. {HL 197.2}

Praise God for the SOP, that exposes the snares of Satan!

God Bless! Steve

Woe be unto those who read Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories.

ntmomitf.

What is ntmomitf?

I don't read it anymore, but do watch an occasional sci-fi movie. The Bible makes a good sci-fi read if you're able to picture extraterrestrials, space craft, advanced technology, alien invasions, and beings powerful enough to create stars and terra-form planets, but it's written from a zero-technology viewpoint.

Poor Uncle Arthur. Every time I opened one of his books to read to my children when they were small, stale pop-corn would pop right out of the pages.

I'm not sure what they are. I have his son's C. Mervyn's two books on Daniel and Revelation. His other son, Graham Maxwell, teaches some perverted doctrines.

Bible stories in themselves may not be so bad, if they are not dramatized. I think Ellen White teaches in Adventist home and Child Guidance, that the parents are to teach the children themselves.

What about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Wouldn't that be considered "fantasy" or "fiction" by some accounts?

I think it would.



ntmomitf

Well.....some would say because Christ told the story, it is okay, besides it was only an illustration or it was told to make a point or etc,etc, etc.

So, if we go By EGW, no books, even based on reality or telling a story for a purpose or depicting real life, etc, etc, etc....or is that what she was really talking about?
We might even want to see what the popular literature of her day was, what was available, and maybe just maybe try to find out just exactly she was describing.
General counsel good, yes, I would say so, but I would not apply it to all fiction, that is just to easy!

Do not read much sci-fi any more, what I read as a teenager or in my 20's, much of that has come true! Always enjoyed the genre that had a science background and the author was endevoring to make people think or just extrpolating what scienc could bring.

My current interest have more to do with archeology, political intrigue or just plaine who dunit from some of the writers out here in the west.

I think so, too, rudywoofs. And...
it matters to me!

ALIENSANCTUARY


SO STALE POP CORN NOW THAT IS STRANGE FOR SURE


hahahahaha hehehehehehehe hohohohohohohoho


dgrimm60

AUBREY

I DONT see the rich man and lazarus as sciene fiction

to my understanding that acutally was a begger named
lazarus that was begging out side a rich mans house

dgrimmm60

HEY ALL

EVERY STORY that JESUS told people could realate to

dgrimm60

No it is not; the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an allegorical parable designed by God to teach truth, just like His other parables. All worldly secular fiction is light-years away from what Jesus taught. The differences are striking: the one evil, the other good. God's methods of teaching truth cannot be compared to satans methods of corrupting the mind and reveling in sinful concepts, while at the same time destroying interest in the Word of God.

Lazarus and the Rich Man

Chap. 21 - "A Great Gulf Fixed"

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Christ shows that in this life men decide their eternal destiny. During probationary time the grace of God is offered to every soul. But if men waste their opportunities in self-pleasing, they cut themselves off from everlasting life. No afterprobation will be granted them. By their own choice they have fixed an impassable gulf between them and their God. {COL 260.1}

This parable draws a contrast between the rich who have not made God their dependence, and the poor who have made God their dependence. Christ shows that the time is coming when the position of the two classes will be reversed. Those who are poor in this world's goods, yet who trust in God and are patient in suffering, will one day be exalted above those who now hold the highest positions the world can give but who have not surrendered their life to God. {COL 260.2}

"There was a certain rich man," Christ said, "which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
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which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table." {COL 260.3}

The rich man did not belong to the class represented by the unjust judge, who openly declared his disregard for God and man. He claimed to be a son of Abraham. He did not treat the beggar with violence or require him to go away because the sight of him was disagreeable. If the poor, loathsome specimen of humanity could be comforted by beholding him as he entered his gates, the rich man was willing that he should remain. But he was selfishly indifferent to the needs of his suffering brother. {COL 261.1}

There were then no hospitals in which the sick might be cared for. The suffering and needy were brought to the notice of those to whom the Lord had entrusted wealth, that they might receive help and sympathy. Thus it was with the beggar and the rich man. Lazarus was in great need of help; for he was without friends, home, money, or food. Yet he was allowed to remain in this condition day after day, while the wealthy nobleman had every want supplied. The one who was abundantly able to relieve the sufferings of his fellow creature, lived to himself, as many live today. {COL 261.2}

There are today close beside us many who are hungry, naked, and homeless. A neglect to impart of our means to these needy, suffering ones places upon us a burden of guilt which we shall one day fear to meet. All covetousness is condemned as idolatry. All selfish indulgence is an offense in God's sight. {COL 261.3}

God had made the rich man a steward of His means, and it was his duty to attend to just such cases as that of the beggar. The command had been given, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" (Deuteronomy 6:5); and "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Leviticus 19:18). The
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rich man was a Jew, and he was acquainted with the command of God. But he forgot that he was accountable for the use of his entrusted means and capabilities. The Lord's blessings rested upon him abundantly, but he employed them selfishly, to honor himself, not his Maker. In proportion to his abundance was his obligation to use his gifts for the uplifting of humanity. This was the Lord's command, but the rich man had no thought of his obligation to God. He lent money, and took interest for what he loaned; but he returned no interest for what God had lent him. He had knowledge and talents, but did not improve them. Forgetful of his accountability to God, he devoted all his powers to pleasure.

Everything with which he was surrounded, his round of amusements, the praise and flattery of his friends, ministered to his selfish enjoyment. So engrossed was he in the society of his friends that he lost all sense of his responsibility to co-operate with God in His ministry of mercy. He had opportunity to understand the word of God, and to practice its teachings; but the pleasure-loving society he chose so occupied his time that he forgot the God of eternity. {COL 261.4}

The time came when a change took place in the condition of the two men. The poor man had suffered day by day, but he had patiently and quietly endured. In the course of time he died and was buried. There was no one to mourn for him; but by his patience in suffering he had witnessed for Christ, he had endured the test of his faith, and at his death he is represented as being carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. {COL 262.1}

Lazarus represents the suffering poor who believe in Christ. When the trumpet sounds and all that are in the graves hear Christ's voice and come forth, they will receive their reward; for their faith in God was not a mere theory, but a reality.
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{COL 262.2}
"The rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." {COL 263.1}


In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him. {COL 263.2}


Christ desires His hearers to understand that it is impossible for men to secure the salvation of the soul after death. "Son," Abraham is represented as answering, "remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you can not; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Thus Christ represented the hopelessness of looking for a second probation. This life is the only time given to man in which to prepare for eternity. {COL 263.3}
The rich man had not abandoned the idea that he was a child of Abraham, and in his distress he is represented as
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calling upon him for aid. "Father Abraham," he prayed, "have mercy on me." He did not pray to God, but to Abraham. Thus he showed that he placed Abraham above God, and that he relied on his relationship to Abraham for salvation. The thief on the cross offered his prayer to Christ. "Remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom," he said. (Luke 23:42.) And at once the response came, Verily I say unto thee today (as I hang on the cross in humiliation and suffering), thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. But the rich man prayed to Abraham, and his petition was not granted. Christ alone is exalted to be "a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. "Neither is there salvation in any other." Acts 4:12. {COL 263.4}


The rich man had spent his life in self-pleasing, and too late he saw that he had made no provision for eternity. He realized his folly, and thought of his brothers, who would go on as he had gone, living to please themselves. Then he made the request, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him [Lazarus] to my father's house; for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." But "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham; but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." {COL 264.1
}
When the rich man solicited additional evidence for his brothers, he was plainly told that should this evidence be given, they would not be persuaded. His request cast a reflection on God. It was as if the rich man had said, If you had more thoroughly warned me, I should not now be here. Abraham in his answer to this request is represented
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as saying, Your brothers have been sufficiently warned. Light has been given them, but they would not see; truth has been presented to them, but they would not hear. {COL 264.2}

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." These words were proved true in the history of the Jewish nation. Christ's last and crowning miracle was the raising of Lazarus of Bethany, after he had been dead four days. The Jews were given this wonderful evidence of the Saviour's divinity, but they rejected it. Lazarus rose from the dead and bore his testimony before them, but they hardened their hearts against all evidence, and even sought to take his life. (John 12:9-11.) {COL 265.1}

The law and the prophets are God's appointed agencies for the salvation of men. Christ said, Let them give heed to these evidences. If they do not listen to the voice of God in His word, the testimony of a witness raised from the dead would not be heeded. {COL 265.2}


Those who heed Moses and the prophets will require no greater light than God has given; but if men reject the light, and fail to appreciate the opportunities granted them, they would not hear if one from the dead should come to them with a message. They would not be convinced even by this evidence; for those who reject the law and the prophets so harden their hearts that they will reject all light. {COL 265.3}

The conversation between Abraham and the once-rich man is figurative. The lesson to be gathered from it is that every man is given sufficient light for the discharge of the duties required of him. Man's responsibilities are proportionate to his opportunities and privileges. God gives to every one sufficient light and grace to do the work He has given him to do. If man fails to do that which a little light shows to be his duty, greater light would only reveal unfaithfulness, neglect to improve the blessings given. "He
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that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much; and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10. Those who refuse to be enlightened by Moses and the prophets and ask for some wonderful miracle to be performed would not be convinced if their wish were granted. {COL 265.4}


The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows how the two classes represented by these men are estimated in the unseen world. There is no sin in being rich if riches are not acquired by injustice. A rich man is not condemned for having riches, but condemnation rests upon him if the means entrusted to him is spent in selfishness. Far better might he lay up his money beside the throne of God, by using it to do good. Death cannot make any man poor who thus devotes himself to seeking eternal riches. But the man who hoards his treasure for self can not take any of it to heaven. He has proved himself to be an unfaithful steward. During his lifetime he had his good things, but he was forgetful of his obligation to God. He failed of securing the heavenly treasure. {COL 266.1}


The rich man who had so many privileges is represented to us as one who should have cultivated his gifts, so that his works should reach to the great beyond, carrying with them improved spiritual advantages. It is the purpose of redemption, not only to blot out sin, but to give back to man those spiritual gifts lost because of sin's dwarfing power. Money cannot be carried into the next life; it is not needed there; but the good deeds done in winning souls to Christ are carried to the heavenly courts. But those who selfishly spend the Lord's gifts on themselves, leaving their needy fellow creatures without aid and doing nothing to advance God's work in the world, dishonor their Maker. Robbery of God is written opposite their names in the books of heaven.
}

The rich man had all that money could procure, but he did not possess the riches that would have kept his account right with God. He had lived as if all that he possessed were his own. He had neglected the call of God and the claims of the suffering poor. But at length there comes a call which he cannot neglect. By a power which he cannot question or resist he is commanded to quit the premises of which he is no longer steward. The once-rich man is reduced to hopeless poverty. The robe of Christ's righteousness, woven in the loom of heaven, can never cover him. He who once wore the richest purple, the finest linen, is reduced to nakedness. His probation is ended. He brought nothing into the world, and he can take nothing out of it. {COL 267.1

}
Christ lifted the curtain and presented this picture before priests and rulers, scribes and Pharisees. Look at it, you who are rich in this world's goods and are not rich toward God. Will you not contemplate this scene? That which is highly esteemed among men is abhorrent in the sight of God. Christ asks, "What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Mark 8:36, 37. {COL 267.2}

Application to the Jewish Nation

When Christ gave the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there were many in the Jewish nation in the pitiable condition of the rich man, using the Lord's goods for selfish gratification, preparing themselves to hear the sentence, "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting." Daniel 5:27. The rich man was favored with every temporal and spiritual blessing, but he refused to cooperate with God in the use of these blessings. Thus it was with the Jewish nation. The Lord had made the Jews the depositaries of sacred truth. He had appointed them
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stewards of His grace. He had given them every spiritual and temporal advantage, and He called upon them to impart these blessings. Special instruction had been given them in regard to their treatment of their brethren who had fallen into decay, of the stranger within their gates, and of the poor among them. They were not to seek to gain everything for their own advantage, but were to remember those in need and share with them. And God promised to bless them in accordance with their deeds of love and mercy.

But like the rich man, they put forth no helping hand to relieve the temporal or spiritual necessities of suffering humanity. Filled with pride, they regarded themselves as the chosen and favored people of God; yet they did not serve or worship God. They put their dependence in the fact that they were children of Abraham. "We be Abraham's seed," they said proudly. (John 8:33.) When the crisis came, it was revealed that they had divorced themselves from God, and had placed their trust in Abraham, as if he were God. {COL 267.3}

Christ longed to let light shine into the darkened minds of the Jewish people. He said to them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill Me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God. This did not Abraham." John 8:39, 40. {COL 268.1}

Christ recognized no virtue in lineage. He taught that spiritual connection supersedes all natural connection. The Jews claimed to have descended from Abraham; but by failing to do the works of Abraham, they proved that they were not his true children. Only those who prove themselves to be spiritually in harmony with Abraham by obeying the voice of God, are reckoned as of true descent. Although the beggar belonged to the class looked upon by men as inferior, Christ recognized him as one whom Abraham would take into the very closest friendship.
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{COL 268.2}
The rich man though surrounded with all the luxuries of life was so ignorant that he put Abraham where God should have been. If he had appreciated his exalted privileges and had allowed God's Spirit to mold his mind and heart, he would have had an altogether different position. So with the nation he represented. If they had responded to the divine call, their future would have been wholly different.

They would have shown true spiritual discernment. They had means which God would have increased, making it sufficient to bless and enlighten the whole world. But they had so far separated from the Lord's arrangement that their whole life was perverted. They failed to use their gifts as God's stewards in accordance with truth and righteousness. Eternity was not brought into their reckoning, and the result of their unfaithfulness was ruin to the whole nation. {COL 269.1}


Christ knew that at the destruction of Jerusalem the Jews would remember His warning. And it was so. When calamity came upon Jerusalem, when starvation and suffering of every kind came upon the people, they remembered these words of Christ and understood the parable. They had brought their suffering upon themselves by their neglect to let their God-given light shine forth to the world. {COL 269.2}

In the Last Days

The closing scenes of this earth's history are portrayed in the closing of the rich man's history. The rich man claimed to be a son of Abraham, but he was separated from Abraham by an impassable gulf--a character wrongly developed. Abraham served God, following His word in faith and obedience. But the rich man was unmindful of God and of the needs of suffering humanity. The great gulf fixed between him and Abraham was the gulf of
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disobedience. There are many today who are following the same course. Though church members, they are unconverted. They may take part in the church service, they may chant the psalm, "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after Thee, O God" (Psalm 42:1); but they testify to a falsehood. They are no more righteous in God's sight than is the veriest sinner.

The soul that longs after the excitement of worldly pleasure, the mind that is full of love for display, cannot serve God. Like the rich man in the parable, such a one has no inclination to war against the lust of the flesh. He longs to indulge appetite. He chooses the atmosphere of sin. He is suddenly snatched away by death, and he goes down to the grave with the character formed during his lifetime in copartnership with Satanic agencies. In the grave he has no power to choose anything, be it good or evil; for in the day when a man dies, his thoughts perish. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.) {COL 269.3}

When the voice of God awakes the dead, he will come from the grave with the same appetites and passions, the same likes and dislikes, that he cherished when living. God works no miracle to re-create a man who would not be re-created when he was granted every opportunity and provided with every facility. During his lifetime he took no delight in God, nor found pleasure in His service. His character is not in harmony with God, and he could not be happy in the heavenly family. {COL 270.1}

Today there is a class in our world who are self-righteous. They are not gluttons, they are not drunkards, they are not infidels; but they desire to live for themselves, not for God. He is not in their thoughts; therefore they are classed with unbelievers. Were it possible for them to enter the gates of the city of God, they could have no right to the tree of life, for when God's commandments were laid before them with all their binding claims they
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said, No. They have not served God here; therefore they would not serve Him hereafter. They could not live in His presence, and they would feel that any place was preferable to heaven. {COL 270.2}

To learn of Christ means to receive His grace, which is His character. But those who do not appreciate and utilize the precious opportunities and sacred influences granted them on earth, are not fitted to take part in the pure devotion of heaven. Their characters are not molded according to the divine similitude. By their own neglect they have formed a chasm which nothing can bridge. Between them and the righteous there is a great gulf fixed. {COL 271.1}

Anyone tell you are rude and lack social skills?

I do not agree with some of what he says, but to call them perverted is tacky.

i said it somewhere else, but if you dont mind ill tack it on here too.

steve, you are very much wanted but your behavior is not!

Ah, human frailty! "They will know that you are my disciples by the way you love one another"

Isn't it ironic that this incident happened in a thread about science fiction? Scientific discoveries are growing in leaps and bounds but our sinful nature is leading us down an opposite path.

I don't know you Steve, and I may not agree with you but I love you anyway

" . . . and the greatest of all these things is LOVE."

Alex (am still learning to love everyday - it ain't easy)

Regarding: In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him. {COL 263.2}

Christ used a fictional setting to "inculcate important truths." In some senses, it could also be regarded as fantasy. My thought is that if Christ saw a use for fiction/fantasy in His teachings, then it is not the media itself that is flawed. What is more important is the message. There are many good messages that can be gleaned from the reading of science fiction.

AUBREY

BUT ALL if not most of the parables were things that
happen to real people---using these to teach the truths
of the bible

dgrimm60

Are you saying that Lazarus and the rich man were real people--one of whom died and then was able to speak to the other one from beyond the grave?

I understand that Jesus did not use science fiction as a medium, but He did use a fictional settting to illustrate the principle of living not for one's own financial gains. To some reading the story, such a fictional setting might even be considered "fantasy" (i.e., the fantasy of being able to speak to loved ones who've passed away).

yes.both of whom died, and no. they were just used as an example.


Jesus used situations the people knew of and "took liberties" to make a point, is how i understand it.

So it was like historical fiction?

Both were dead in the parable? I must have forgotten the parable. Honestly I thought Lazarus was supposed to have been alive still--so that he could go back and warn the rich man's relatives.

At any rate, you are saying that Jesus "took liberties" and used a fictional setting to get his message across--yes?

Ellen White clearly gives understanding in "a Great Gulf Fixed" in COL.

"In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him." {COL 263.2}

Christ desires His hearers to understand that it is impossible for men to secure the salvation of the soul after death. "Son," Abraham is represented as answering, "remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you can not; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Thus Christ represented the hopelessness of looking for a second probation. This life is the only time given to man in which to prepare for eternity." {COL 263.3}

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is a reference to the real Lazarus Jesus resurrected.

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." These words were proved true in the history of the Jewish nation. Christ's last and crowning miracle was the raising of Lazarus of Bethany, after he had been dead four days. The Jews were given this wonderful evidence of the Saviour's divinity, but they rejected it. Lazarus rose from the dead and bore his testimony before them, but they hardened their hearts against all evidence, and even sought to take his life. (John 12:9-11.) {COL 265.1}

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores,

This Lazarus and the rich man were not real persons.

How does accusing me make you any better than you say I am?

His doctrines are a perversion of the truth, period.

No longer consent to listen without protest to the perversion of truth (Selected
Messages, vol. 1, p. 196).

I may be wrong, but I think one of the Rules of the Forum is not to argue with the Administrator.

Sorry ... but love just don't cut it.

You love and they abuse.

At some point the abuse has to stop.

I appreciate Stan's comments and would encourage more of them.

I think you are mistaken. That is not what this is about. If Stan thinks he can abuse his status as site owner and call me names, when what I did was call certain doctrines perverted that someone teaches without calling that person preverted, then he can delete my account effective immediately.

Topics - Adventist of Tomorrow
Discussions on this "forum" are open and free....but vulgarity (unlike the vulgarity allowed on "Club Adventist," owned by a Seventh-day Adventist ... http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/board-topics.html

It seems this forum site already has a reputation for abuse. It is to see why, it comes from the top down.


Mat 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.

I will do the honour if this doesn't stop.

If it is your wish I can do that now.

Please don't leave.


ntmomitf

Although Lazarus was in so deplorable and mean a condition, he had true faith, true moral worth, which God saw, and which He considered of so great value that He took this poor, despised sufferer and placed him in the most exalted position, while the honored and ease-loving man of wealth was thrust out from the presence of God and plunged into misery and woe unutterable. God did not value the riches of this wealthy man, because he had not true moral worth. His character was worthless. His riches did not recommend him to God nor have any influence to secure His favor. {1T 539.2}

Good Point Stan. Thank you for speaking up. We could turn this forum into childish banter. Tit for tat. We could say ... Billiter teaches a perverted doctrine. No ... Stan teaches a perverted doctrine. Yada Yada Yada.

Instead of slandering someone's views ... why not just list the issues and discuss them instead of cutting someone's views down .

I have to admit that I participate in the tit for tat. I think that unless we show the abusers what he is doing ... they will not learn. Showing kindness towards the abuser only encourages more.

So ... here goes. I will do just what I am saying we should not do. Billiter ... YOU teach a perverted doctrine.

(Tell us how that feels now Steve. And do we really want to resort to this kind of behaviour?)

if you are still here, lets discuss this. i dont know that anyone will be able to get through to you, but lets try.

why do you believe that what you did is ok, but that being identified as "rude" is not? is there a possibility that you are rude, but see it as ok behavior?

I think that was unnecessary.

One would hope this would be unnecessary. I agree with you Pam. But, I suspect that in order to get through to this poster ... it is indeed needed. Sad but true. How else is he going to see what he did as wrong. He has already rejected common sense and is defending his actions.

Shall we all just love him? Do you think he will then amend his ways?

ntmomitf

Give someone an inch ... they will take a mile. Steve ... your comments are out of line.

What I don't like about the "if you break the rules we ban you" idea is that there is no room for healing. Sure, the offender won't be able to break the rules anymore... at least not on the websites where he/she is banned.

Steve has done nothing more offensive here, that I know of, than being, as someone put it, rude and lacking social skills (which, by the way, I thought was rather rude, but please don't ban me for saying that). And many might not think he is a very pleasant person, but the fact remains that none of us are perfect. He has not really broken the rules (again, as far as I know) any more than some of us have at one time or another. He hasn't been swearing, posting inappropriate pictures, or hunted anyone down and killed them. That's pretty good as far as the internet goes.

The usual attitude in these situations is "Well, we loved so-and-so, but they are just too rude, so bye-bye!" I think that means that there was never much love going toward the person at all. How can people know the love of God if we don't show Him to them? What if, in the end, rejecting someone influenced them to turn against God? We can't know until it's too late!

My point is, should our attitude be conditional on whether or not we expect a person to amend their ways? God loves even those whom He KNOWS will never love Him... while we are more than happy to ban people because we doubt that they will amend their ways.

Whether or not he "amends his ways" (and there is no way of knowing for sure), I think we should all just love him. So I say... give him a chance.

Did I miss something? Where was banning him discussed?

Hey... He offered!

I wasn't condemning you or anything, just pointing out that banning him had been spoken of. :)

This was not the first time the attitude was addressed.

There are adventist kind of boards, that like to destroy ministries. Some folks may enjoy it there better.

i would like to address this. i also have this "mentality" and i suspect too many of us do.

but i believe we are completely missing the point. Jesus didnt "love" us and then when that didnt "work" start whacking us upside the head. :)

i mean if we are "loving" someone, being nice to them, in order to get them to change, are we, indeed, "loving" them? Jesus remained loving regardless of whether others changed or not. look at the cross. i struggle with this all the time. i dont know when i will win the battle, but i do know that Gods way is best, mostly for me, regardless of whether the other one shapes up or kills me.



i believe steve is operating on "automatic". i believe he has no control of how he will react. (been there, done that.) if any part of him sees that he is wrong i dont believe that he can stop. if any part of him wishes to change this is where our prayers would come in handy because only Jesus can deliver.

so i hope that if any of us are truly christians whatever stage we might be at that we unite in prayer for him, perhaps expecting that it may get worse before it gets better. if so may God keep us in prayer instead of kissing him off.

What is instructive to me is that some of you continue to judge me unrighteously.

I have an extremely high for God's truth. I do not like error. When error is posted or taught in any manner I will prove it wrong from the Bible and EGW. If I don't have the proof at that time, I will find it. That is why I made the comment about Maxwell's teachings. I will say the same about all false teachers.

i believe he has no control of how he will react.


Perhaps you may be better off worrying about yourself instead of judging and criticizing me. The major problems is that those with logs in their eyes get distorted views of reality.

Judge not, that ye be not judged." Do not think yourself better than other men, and set yourself up as their judge. Since you cannot discern motive, you are incapable of judging another. In criticizing him, you are passing sentence upon yourself; for you show that you are a participant with Satan, the accuser of the brethren. The Lord says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves." This is our work. "If we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:31. {DA 314.1}

Do you understand that you are talking about yourself??

I agree (that's what I was trying to say in my excruciatingly long post that nobody read).

Is our love dependent on whether or not we think that someone will or will not change? Or is it supposed to be "unconditional"?

it was read and, i believe, is being considered. the problem is hurt feelings, probably.

hey guys, i really, honestly have been there.

i came from a very dysfunctional family and church and have had many issues to work through. it was only in seeing sane, stable people, some of whom were beautiful christians also, and seeing the difference in them and myself. still letting go of what i was and becoming sane and stable myself has been a hard battle and i still havent arrived.

only Jesus can deliver steve, as insulting as he may find the suggestion that he needs help. we need to immediately go into prayer the minute the "hate" comes because the Holy Spirit can open his eyes to how he comes across and give him a desire to be different.

getting off my preachy, now....

...and the quote that immediately followed...

the log vision distortion thing typically makes it nearly impossible for an accuser of the brethren or judgmental person to perceive the reflected image in this mirror in front of them ...

teresa, we have a smiley for preachiness:

and

:)

yeah, i know. my internet has been coming and going and i didnt want to wait for the smilies to come up. :)

WOW!

All I wanted was some opinions about science fiction.

Did I walk into the wrong room ?

Just goes to show us that none of us is perfect.

I'm new here but not new to internet forums. Lighten up folks, since our characters are the only thing we'll take with us to Heaven, we all better start working on them now.



Alex

I just love it when we all get along perfectly like this. :D

The world is full of people who believe they are among the few who possess

Sometimes people buy Truth glasses with special filters that accommodate only their version of Truth. Unfortunately, these glasses filter out a just little too much, leaving the wearers with a visual deficit. Because of this impairment, they sometimes step on people they can't see very well because all they can see is their own reality.

These special Truth glasses also remove shades of grey, leaving only black and white. There are many different brands of Truth glasses, including Catholic, JW, Mormon, Muslim, SDA, Historic SDA, EGW Sunglasses, 1844 Sunglasses, etc.

Once they realize that, because of their visual deficit, they have stepped on and squashed people with Truth, one may choose to remove the filter glasses and begin to see the world unfiltered, again, eventually permanently removing and discarding their particular brand of Truth glasses.

Jesus never spewed long lists of quotes to prove he was right or that he knew, above all others, what was Truth. He was always kind and patient with the ignorant and the unbelieving, but not so much with those who forced their particular brand of Truth on others. Just as important as knowing the Truth is displaying kindness to everyone, even our enemies.

Perhaps someday we will find out that none of us possess the Truth, because we are all ignorant.

this would have been really nice on the spiritual abuse threads. :)interestingly, if heathen will be in heaven, it would appear that only true kindness will avail.

Well ... I don't want to side track this thread. But, you can take your character to heaven if you want. But I don't plan on taking mine. I plan on having mine changed into the likeness of Jesus's character. And it ain't there yet.

The change from earth to heaven will not change men's character; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the character formed in this life after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {Mar 326}

Only those will enter heaven who in probationary time have formed a character that breathes a heavenly influence. The saint in heaven must first be a saint upon earth. {CG 481}

Once again The prophet shows Redwoods professed understanding of salvation to be not only erronious, but lethal.

See emphasis.

You know, I don't think we're talking about science fiction anymore... :\

Well SivartM ... some of the thoughts expressed here ARE about fiction.

So Ellen White is fiction? You must really hate her writings.

Ha Ha Richard. Very funny. It's just some of the fictional interpretations that I am opposed to.

Ok, I am willing to be taught. Show me how you interpret what she says here differently:

The change from earth to heaven will not change men's character; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the character formed in this life after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {Mar 326}

Only those will enter heaven who in probationary time have formed a character that breathes a heavenly influence. The saint in heaven must first be a saint upon earth. {CG 481}

Not here Richard. Why don't you start a new thread. Best to stick with the topic ...

Good idea.

Here we go again. The two theological ideology camps at war. EGW said this; the Bible says this; but EGW says this; but the Bible says this.

the lower the stage a person is at spiritually, the harder it is for them to see what another is saying, hence the mudslinging. if they could get past their limited understanding to see what is being said instead of what they believe is being said....

on the other hand there will be disagreements, but it really does not have to be as bad as some make it.

hard to live with, i know. as if that isnt bad enough, i break and start swinging myself. :(

Yes. How true. But it wouldn't be necessary if the others would check out the context when interpreting EGW and scripture. If they did that ... they would believe as I believe !! Ha Ha.

That just means you are at a low stage spiritually. According to your own reasoning.

I like sci fi because it takes the imagination beyond its normal limits. Crime and murder mysteries are so oppressive, but some sci fi is also filled with war and bloodshed, a subject so many enjoy. Sci fi can take us to the past and the future, and across the universe in a flash. I no longer read it, but occasionally when I do watch a decent sci fi movie, I sometimes see things with Biblical possibilities.

If we don't read Biblical accounts of the Last Days with a sci fi eye, we may be in for a terrible shock when the time is upon us and we are unprepared for the earth-shaking sky-ripping battle scenes before us.

It would really be nice if people would quite abusing the dear lady by taking her out of context.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if humans could find the 'rightness' in others instead of assuming they, them selves, are the right nones.

We get to heaven on the merits of Christ, He is a Saint, we are Saints. That is what God sees.

Yes, oh great and powerful wizard of Oz...uh..wait a minute...you're not from Oz!

Amen. CoAspen,. you have my undivided attention!

Amen, we do it through Bible sanctification, here's how:


Sanctification Worksheet

Although justification occurs at the new birth, the process of sanctification just begins. Along with the new mind and attitude Christ gives us through the Holy Spirit at justification, that new attitude should cause a seeking after God, to live by every word that proceeds from Him. The development of a Godly character is the work of a lifetime.

However, if one dies right after justification, he still is saved, the thief on the cross proves that. Assigning a works-based theology to sanctification simply does not work. In addition, calling obedience to God's requirements "legalism" across the board shows a very faulty understanding of the Bible. Here are the Bible texts that show how the process of sanctification and character development should work:

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

"In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (MS 57, 1900)". {6BC 1074.9}

Bible Sanctification

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ
.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Does anyone think all these things are added at justification, then the forgiven sinner goes along his merry way with a perfect character? No. Common sense even shows us the truth. What is a babe in Christ?

1Co 3:1 And I, brothers, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even as to babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for till now you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.
1Co 3:3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas t

Paul here is speaking of new converts, much lacking in character development, that cannot yet understand the meat of the Word. The fruits of the spirit are also closely intertwined with Bible sanctification:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. We must die to self daily and put on Christ for all this to happen.

Php 2:12 Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Php 2:13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is clear that we cooperate with God in the process of sanctification.

I disagree. I think that Teresa is at a high stage. Just from my observation.

actually, according to the article i read it would seem im a wobbly in the middle. coming out of the lower stages but not having arrived into the higher stages. :)

it is a really good paper and gets one to thinking about what is really important.

Good post CoAspen

pk

Thanks pk and CoA. Well ... I guess the reason I am 'lethal' is because they tell me I'm not saved and that I am headed to Hell. I suppose that if that were true ... I would be 'lethal'. Best stay away from me in case I have cooties.

Redwood, I was told I'm going to hell too, and that I'd probably like it there.

Both of you give too much credibility to some folks.

I was told that in academy - he was my Bible teacher and academy pastor. It's hard not to take something like that to heart when you're only 15.

rudy i was told the same thing, and i was about the same age i believe. i'm still around, and like stan said don't give anyone power over you. i just laughed when the camp counselor said that.

pk

You have tougher skin than me, pk... it still makes me cry..

Sorry about that rudywoofs. People can be so cruel. When my wife first moved to NY, before we met, she was going to a church in Hempstead, NY, I believe and old member there past her a note telling her that her dress was to short and that she was tempting him. How do you like that. I think she said he was probably in his 80s or so. She also left that church in tears, but stay in the adventist church. Just went to another one.

pk

lets start at the beginning and not jump into the middle.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
this one is correct.

In academy I was told that I would actually be a better person if I got a haircut, not that I would look better. Oh the sanctifying influence of short hair...

Gee! what happened to my original request for opinions about science fiction? Seems like we have Christian hijackers lurking in our midst.

Alex (isn't it amazing to see how science-fiction leads to sanctification?)