Nice list, Rich!

I've read a few but of the ones I've read, I most highly recommend Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh and Elaine Pagels for its clarity, readability and the sense of pure spirituality that pervades his writing.

Alex (nice blog too, BTW!)

I'm a little puzzled here, carwd. How did reading all those books about God and Jesus help you to move forward to a far more convincing awareness of well being than any claims of Divine revelation ever offered?

CARDW

about your post on joy and suffering sound so much
like BUDDHISM.....it is like you are trying to work
you way toward to achieve this....

by the way I have a friend that is a BUDDHIST and
he uses this same reason


dgrimm60

Well, I see Jesus as a skeptic and philosopher who was hijacked by orthodox Christianity and given Divinity. I even have my doubts that a person named Jesus Christ existed at all, but there is certainly an expression of wisdom and insight in some of the sayings and observations of Jesus.

One does not need Divinity to say these things or to come up with them. To understand this more clearly I think Joseph Campbell's work on the Power of Myth is helpful in understanding this approach.

Just because a writer states they believe in god doesn't negate what they may say in other regards. The particular Christian writers that I have found helpful tend to relate in a way that doesn't need god to make what they say true.

There is work, but it's not based on external rewards. I'm not working towards salvation. I'm trying to avoid suffering and experience joy. That's pretty much instinctual. Not many people I know have to work at that desire.

When I state what I find to be true, it's not me trying to be good. It's me discovering the best way to find joy. That's an internal reward or in Christian terms your treasure in heaven. I think Jesus was referring to the Kingdom of God within as heaven available now. Many early Christians saw what became referred to as the 2nd coming as an internal mystical experience available right then. Pentecost and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ may have been remnants of early gnostic beliefs about this mystical return.

Because Christianity establishes this idea of salvation, it becomes difficult to understand this concept outside of the Christian lens of good/bad/right/wrong. And for me the words of Jesus really spell this out clearly when he states that by the fruits you can know what is true. And, for me, I have found absolutely no evidence that Christianity produces what it claims.

When I look at the fruits of Christianity over its history, I find an appalling preponderance of violence and bigotry over and over and over again. And I believe it's because it adopted the neo platonic ideas of good and evil. The practice of violence against any who disagreed has been the greater portion of its history. It has been the secular movement that has checked its violence for now, but as we all know there are still those willing to kill in the name of god.

And I encounter Christians who are beautiful people, but their ignorance serves to spread suffering. A fool can create far more suffering than a tyrant. If Christians would spend more time learning how to reason well and less time trying to be "good" I think their voice would bring far different results. There is a vast wasteland of teaching, within Christianity, on how to empathize and love others. There is an excess of teaching on how to be "right."

And the tragedy of this approach is that it squelches empathy and love and is neither good or nor "right."

I see we like some of the same books. You've listed some excellent things. Viktor Frankl's book is one of my favorits. I've heard good things about the C.S, Lewis book you mention, but I haven't read it yet. I want to read it and Surprised By Joy. I liked his book On Pain and Screwtape Letters. He's always interesting and of course a great stylist, too. I enjoy reading almost anything about myths and eastern religions. Carl Jung wrote some excellent books about both.

You say you have doubts that a person named Jesus existed at all. That's a very interesting viewpoint. I don't think there are many students of history today who believe this. I'm not saying they necessarily believe that He was who the NT claims He is, but it seems to me that most believe that someone named Jesus of Nazareth actually did exist during the time the NT says. Even the ancient Jewish writings of that time-- the Talmud-- mention him although they say he was a sorcerer who performed miracles. That agrees with what the NT says some of the Jewish leaders were saying about Jesus. There's also the letter of Pliny the Younger which is very early and shows that the people were willing to die for what they believed. For me it means that they at least did not believe it was made up.

Have you heard of or read a book entitled, The Case For Christ, by Lee Strobel? It does a good job of investigating the evidence about the existence of Christ and about whether the NT writings about Him stand up under close scrutiny. For anyone who enjoys the subject, it's certainly good reading anyway.

For a summary of negative arguments you can go to this link

Did Jesus Exist?

In actuality we can probably never know if Jesus existed. My guess from looking at the process of creating the Jesus myth is that Jesus or Joshua is a combination of various myths of the time and probably was originally a Jewish teacher with no claims of Divinity.

Within Christian circles the existence of Jesus is rarely questioned, so most believers are unaware of the lack of historical evidence other than the New Testament for Jesus the Christ. And all of the books of the NT were written long after Jesus died.

What is the earliest date of an ancient manuscript of one of the NT books, as far as you know?

Well, it certainly is a fascinating subject anyway.

If true, it's the most important thing in history and indeed in life; if untrue, it really doesn't matter.

I enjoy reading books on the subject from different viewpoints. I want to know the truth. I don't like the idea of accepting lies. You probably feel the same. So the best thing to do is read both sides of any issue, particulary this one. It keeps us honest, or more so anyway.

I'm going to break one of the commandments slightly (shh . . . ) and borrow Rich's comment about Christian ignorance. How sad but how true. A lack of knowledge not only causes suffering for our own people but creates a schism within and a chasm between the secular and religious worlds.

Just the ability to speak honestly with agnostics and atheists without trying to be right. This would be much appreciated. I have quite a few friends in this category but they respect me and my beliefs because I don't use them as either a hammer or a crowbar. Some of the best spiritual conversations I've had are with these friends and sad to say not with my Christian ones.

Just take a look at this forum. There's more arguing from within than without. We are clearly not on the same page. I'm scared. And I'm getting more scared everyday. It's my fellow Christians who are scaring me. Lord, into thine hands I commend my spirit.

Your brother in Christ
Alex