If you found out today, without a doubt that there was no God. How would your behavior change, your personality, your relationships et al?

When I was teaching and we covered existential literature, I would ask my students if there were no law against murder, would murder still be wrong? Incidentally, this question stems from a study of Camus' The Stranger

Are some of us being "good" simply because we're working toward an eternal reward? I realize this hints at Greek philosophy and even into the modern realm with the way atheists counter Christian apologetics.

This is all for now

Alex

ALEX

THIS is a good question

most of us would think that we would continue to do
what is right

the thing is we would each have to ask our selfs
how would I want to be treated by others then
ask ourselfs how would I WANT to treat others

would we think how this would effect this
other person we would also have to think
how would my attaction affect me as a person

dgrimm60

I have asked myself this same question, only with a different ending to it.

I've seen many people turn into completely different people when presented with certain circumstances. Morals can become quite hazy, even for formerly stalwart people. Even pastors. But then, we've all heard stories and rumours.

The endings for alex's question might be:

- if you were convinced God wasn't looking
- if you are a victim of some evil in your past
- if you found yourself single
- if your earthly circumstances are currently hopeless
- if you have almost superhuman opposition, especially coming from within your own home

These are difficult trials, indeed!

GAIL

WELL all these questions could be different threads

dgrimm60

Very interesting thoughts Gail.

pk

There are some really fine, caring athiests out there that don't murder or steal, etc. To them, this would be a moot question.

There isn't a God anyway.

Yeah, but there IS a Godhead with three Gods in one.

I'm perplexed. Why hasn't anyone attempted to answer the question I proposed for themselves? Most of you are speaking either about the question or around the question or on a tangent from the question.

Outside of your religious beliefs and spiritual identity, what motivates you to do good? It doesn't matter what atheists think - what do you think? or whether this question should be modified to fit one's personal history. The very concept of what "good" begs the question: "If no God, is there still the "good?"

I've noticed a habit some posters have of immediately referencing issues and questions to their own personal histories and/or agendas. I'm not sure where this is coming from but if you were in my classroom, I would redirect your responses.

Maybe the question can't be answered? Maybe its very essence is inscrutable or ineffable but if we simply give up trying to struggle with it, there might come a time when we are called to task to answer why we believe and act as we do. Will we be able to respond?

I'm sorry if I might have ruffled some feathers but as a teacher, I've spent my life attempting to get people to think about hard questions - the ones that make us uncomfortable and even may push us outside of our comfort zones.

Alex (just trying to be as helpful as I can)

ALEX

I DID my best to anwser you question

dgrimm60

HEY ALL

A PERSON can have morals and standards but are they
using those for there ownself or to honor GOD

dgrimm60

Oh, you mean we are in school? Okay-

I have no idea and wouldn't even want to hazard a guess.

Whqt I mean is what I wish for myself and what happens in life are not always the same thing. Morality without God... means that we have to leave morality to our finite minds' ideas of it.

And that is existentialism. Not a good topic for the forum. IMHO

Methinks the originator of this thread has a specific agenda in mind.

I don't know how I would be different, because right now, I can't wrap my mind around the fact that there is no GOD. I would like to think though, that I would basically be the same person. In my youth I was intentionally mean, and I really hated the feelings that stemmed from that, so I now strive not to cause pain to anyone, even though I know that I do from time to time it is completely unintentional.

In Sabbath School a week or so ago, we were talking along these lines, and a young person spoke up and said that the only reason they were "good" was because they didn't want to go to hell. I felt really bad for them, because in this line of thinking they also miss out on the goodness of GOD.

As the originator of this thread, I can say categorically that I did have an agenda in mind. My agenda is to try to encourage posters to respond to ideas through a critical lens that does not first and foremost reflect personal histories and/or personal theological biases.

Shoot me. I'm guilty.

Alex

Hey- I worked hard for that bias!!

:)

I don't think it's wise to use existentialism as a basis for your questions. It's humanism at its best. Your question certainly DOES ask for reflection of personal histories in order to answer what you asked.

Oh, whatever.

My behavior and values wouldn't change, but I know that is because of the Holy Spirit in my life. I'm sure that if I hadn't been converted to Christ, I would eventually have committed murder. But because of prayers in my behalf, the Holy Spirit led me to choose Christ, and after that God changed me. So I am what I am today because of Christ. Without Him, I'm certain I would have either been killed by now or been put in prison.

You ask whether it is wrong to murder if there is no God. Not in any absolute sense but only because it is against the laws of society, and people are punished for violating society's norms. Being constituted as they are, humans also usually punish themselves-- though not necessarily consciously-- because of their "wrong acts." But without God, there would be no violation of a universal moral law since all moral law proceeds from God. If God does not exist, then everything is permitted as far as the universe is concerned. Apart from God's existence, the universe is completely indifferent to morality. Morality is how things should be-- the rule of the ideal-- questions of right and wrong, whereas the universe of itself alone deals only with power and what actually is. It declares that all that is, is right.

If you found out today, without a doubt that there was no God. How would your behavior change, your personality, your relationships et al?

The only way to answer a question about "me" is through "my history and personal theologies".

First, I'd want to know how I found out. Is this a reliable discovery, or is it just someone else's opinion? The only reliable source I find for my personal beliefs has to come from within my realm of personal experiences.

Assuming I do come to the conclusion that God does not exist, I don't believe my personality would change in the least. My relationships would not change save my relationship with God. My behavior also would not change save my going to church (and church-like settings) and speaking to others about God.

I do not behave "morally" to please God. I behave "morally" because intrinsically, I feel it is the right thing to do. My own moral code is one based on respect for my fellow human being.

MODERATOR POST - just tagging on to the end...

People of middle earth, please pay attention to the one rule that rings loud and clear here in the middle earth, otherwise known as the Original Thoughts forum.

NO quotes, please! It is not that hard to understand, I should think. I am seeing a significant disregard of late for this rule here.

I know many of you arrive at these topics, as do I, via the "Active Topics" option in the menu bar and so may bypass the statement of the rule both in the main Forums menu and at the top of the topics list of the Original Thoughts forum. BUT that excuse is most useful for newbies. Most of you who seem consistently doing the quote box routine here have been around long enough to know the rule by now. And the "Active Topics" menu option does clearly identify the specific forum in which each listed topic is found. Please pay attention to that.



And for the record, this is a great topic for this forum, Alex. I like it and will dig into the old brain for a few thoughts later when I have more time.

OK. Back to your regularly scheduled programing...

Carry on!

Tom

I think every one knows instinctively a difference between good and bad.

with that, we we are naturally carnal so our thoughts will be self centered all the time. then again, i dont know if this would be a question if God wasnt. We would be animals and acting as such. all things would be for self.

and atheist, regardless what they believe or lack thereof, it is not by their own power that they dont murder and steal. plus they secretly believe so they're nice and obedient just to be on the safe side.

my aunt once said that if you dont believe you might as well do every thing that you want to do. screw the law and otherwise because you'll only live once. its the fact that we can't prove His existence that keeps alot of us under foot. besides, what shame is it in hoping for better? i accept the promise and i personally want it in full.

Hmmm, not an easy question to answer. Its hard to separate my predisposed way of thinking in answering the question.

Can I live in way that is best for myself and others, I would hope so, because of the desire to survive. I would hope rational thinking is still a priority. If I am in a relationship and I do something to the other person that changes it from satisfactory to unsatisfactory, I should be able to recognize that and make the correct choice to return that relationship that benefits both of us.

To me 'being' good is different from doing what is 'right'. I prefer the latter. Doing what is 'right' has immediate and delayed rewards.

Atheists can be moral, law-abiding people without believing in God. Sheesh..

Let's not even begin to believe we could do any good thing without God. Atheists who live moral lives do so because, even though they don't officially believe in God, they see the beauty of His law and abide by it.

Unless we are ready to trash the Bible right now all we need to do is read the history of how wicked men become when they throw off the constraint of God.

the OP of this thread was about having NO GOD EXISTING.

BTW, Satan can do good things too.

Yes, I'm describing a scenario of no God existing. You could kiss everything you love goodbye. The thoughts of men and women would be only evil continually, since that's where they got to WITH GOD EXISTING. Unless, of course, you believe God causes evil. If you believed that you could convince yourself that we are more righteous than God.

There would not necessarily be evil everywhere if there was no God. That assumes that there is also no Satan. I believe mankind is inherently decent and would make his own laws and have morals similar to what we have with God.

BTW, you are not supposed to quote in this thread, as per moderator instructions.

Great point Pam, I never thought of that, that if there was no GOD then there wouldn't be a satan either.

Well, good grief. There wouldn't be a you or a me, either.

Complaints about the OP to go to Abelisle. LOL That's what happens when you play with existentialism. The OP's question was moot from the start.

Hey all ... I wasn't going to say anything but oh well ... you've talked me into it.

This thread has given me a good laugh.

I quoted myself and it got deleted !! How is it that my own words are not 'original' !!! Okay. I don't mean to criticize the moderator. I suspect when he saw the quotes that he didn't realize WHO I was quoting. !!!!

I just thought it was funny :)

[Karl,]

You are having difficulty understanding the question??

What if!!!!! That is the question!!! It is not about your current value system, but what if there was no God!! It won't hurt you or damage you...just suppose......

Yes, Satan can do good things, but I don't know of any good that he's actually done since he fell into sin and rebellion. He may appear to do good, perhaps, but it is invariably for an evil, selfish purpose. At least as far as I know. For instance, he is persistent and persevering, which is usually a good characteristic, but Satan uses all that energy to advance his kingdom of death.

It's true that atheists do some good things and also that they can be ethical and kind. Much of that can be explained by the fact that many of them grew up believing in Christ at one time. They also live in the world in which they can't help but learn values that resulted from religious beliefs. Most atheists don't live in accordance with their intellectual convictions-- they are still living according to the morality that grows out of religions that they claim they reject. For instance, some will say that we should love everyone, but that is a belief that comes from Christ and from other religions, not from a universe without religious faith. It takes a long time for the behavior and the emotions to follow the lead of the mind, and it only does it after a great struggle against the morality they learned as children.

Some excellent studies have shown that atheists do good only when it is to their benefit and rarely when it is not. Athiesits have often sacrificed themselves for a cause that they believe in, but they almost never sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their enemy. Christ taught us to be kind and loving even to those who do us harm, and many Christians obey that commandment. There's nothing in atheism-- no atheistic teacher or philosopher-- that teaches this. Fredrich Neitszche, the father of "modern atheism," turned Christ's commandments on their head and taught just the opposite.

MODERATOR POST... ONCE AGAIN -

PLEASE READ. AND THINK BEFORE YOU POST. I AM SHOUTING BECAUSE NOBODY SEEMS TO HAVE NOTICED MY PRIOR POST. (CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?)

AS PAM HAS JUST REMINDED EVERYONE, THERE IS TO BE NO QUOTING HERE. (Thanks Pam...)

And if I may also more gently suggest, it seems some have not read, or thought about, much of the rest of the topic before they blindly react. This forum requires you to actually think before you post.

Thanks for your attention and cooperation...

Tom

I apologize for breaking the rule. It wasn't until Pam jabbed me that I understood this other facet of it. My ignorance stems from the "original thought" idea. I thought we just weren't supposed to quote the Bible or SOP or other religious writers in defense of our thinking. I didn't know the prohibition extended to quoting the part of the previous post we were responding to.

Or does "original thoughts" mean that we're not supposed to be using the other posts as a springboard for our own thoughts?

Sorry, I just don't know the etiquette here.

But, to make up for it, I leave you with a fairly original thought which has no relationship to anything I've seen on clubadentist yet.

Sasquatch tracks aren't.

That post is still not answering the original question, would you...., not just a standard answer still involving God!

Would I still be a moral person? Probably not. Why should I be? It's not like what I did would matter.

No, I would not be any different today in either personality or behavior if I found out there was no God. The reason is that whether there is a God or not, I have found that following the NT teachings of Christ lead to the good life on this earth. It makes good sense & "works" whether its promises of heaven are true or not. I've found this out by persoanl experience and not by just hearing or reading about it.

The answer to your second question, about murder, is that without God, it would not be wrong in any absolute sense but it would still be wrong from the viewpoint of human society. Apart from God there would be no absolute moral law by which to measure right and wrong. Yet, because people are influenced by the values of the society in which they grow up, most people would still feel in their "conscience" that it's wrong to murder; but if someone did not have such feelings, they would be no more "wrong" than those who do feel that murder is "wrong." That, however, would only be a subjective judgment and not an objective one.

Your third question asks if some of us are being "good" simply because of the expectation of heaven. My answer is yes, of course. I think most believers begin their Christian walk in that way, but as we mature spiritually we should have more profound reasons for living and behaving as we do. The Bible doesn't condemn people for being motivated by hopes of heaven, but God does expect us to grow so that they are not the only reason for doing good. Our reason should be to help our fellow human beings. However, if we posit that there is no God, I don't believe there's any way to show that someone who doesn't help other people is wrong in any absolute sense. In that case, all we can say is that the person is anti-social or that his acts violate society's laws and therefore should be punished.

I would be the same person I am now.

And I'm tired of Karl saying I "jabbed" him. Stop it.

If there was no God (and the atheists, and evolutionists were right)and there was no future reward or punishment and life as we now know it was pointless,meaningless,and completely existential, why would I not want to: cheat on my income taxes,have sex with as many girls as possible, disrespect my parents, get loaded as often as possible,inflict greater hurt on those who have hurt me first,gather to myself possessions without having to pay for them,lie about others in order to gain some sort of advantage,eliminate anyone who stands in the way of my prosperity and happiness,ect...? "I don't wanna work, I just wanna play in the sun all day!" What are they going to do,kill me? I would quote another Jewish guy who had the same ideas as me (copycat!)but I think it's against the rules.In other words, I'd probably be a liberal.

A couple of questions directed to no one in particular, but rather to those who are in the group who believe that if there were no God, then they would act as immorally as they wished:

Do you act morally now because God directs moral behavior, or do you act morally because you feel it is the right thing to do? Outside of God's moral code for behavior, have you any empathy at all?

Thanks all for your thoughts. Great question, Alex (and I've been really enjoying your presence and contributions here).

I don't believe I would change my actions or the internal moral compass that dictates them if I knew there were no God: I already do things (or avoid doing them) on the basis of whether they enhance the sum total of human happiness or misery rather than in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

In thinking about morality I find Kohlberg's framework very helpful, and in that framework a morality that is all about gaining reward or avoiding punishment is a very low level of moral reasoning (Level 2 of 6, if I recall correctly).

I think the Bible shows that God realizes that some people need rules and threats and promises of prosperity in order to do right. He understands that, and He is willing to meet us where we are. Most "baby Christians" start out that way. I know I did. Now, even if I were to find out that there is no God, I wouldn't change. But as I see it today, that is God's doing, and not the way I would be if I hadn't first accepted the Bible is true.

I think that if I did not believe in God that I would probably not subscribe to any sort of moral code, even if I "felt" that there were such things as right and wrong, because I would dismiss them as evolutionary flukes and pointless rules that religion has imposed on society.

I would probably be a hedonistic anarchist. If not, I would be a dishonest atheist. If in the end, nothing matters... why pretend it matters now?

Which is what makes Truth so appealing...

SIVARTM

THAT is a very interesting point

dgrimm60

Interesting thoughts. Some more questions: Why would you continue living? If there is no right or wrong, and if nothing in the end mattered and nothing mattered in the here and now, then why even bother with hedonistic anarchy? Wouldn't that, too, be a complete waste of time?

Good point. The only reason I can think of to live is to further evolution by reproducing as much as possible. Of course, I would probably be stuck between that and having no children because bringing children into an utterly pointless existence would be cruel... except without a moral code, nothing is cruel.

Also, I suppose, I would probably just think, "Well, as long as I'm here, I might as well draw some fleeting pleasure out of the whole thing." I think that's basically what hedonism is about... nothing matters anyway, so we might as well make the most of it and try to have as much pleasure as possible before we turn back into mud.

An observation here.....
Based on some of the postings, suggesting an existence w/o God would be pointless, many are still thinking with their current belief system and preconceived ideas which is not what the original question is hypothesizing! Not suggesting it is an easy question but surely we can have reasons to live or be in a harmonious community. Our current definition of the word 'moral' might not fit. I think we could find some examples in the animal kingdom where groups have a self designed harmonious relationship that is for the benefit of the group. So, hopefully, the more highly developed brain of humans would do much better.

Some ideas suggest there is no reason for living outside of having God. What? No one is simply enjoying their everyday life? No pleasure, no fulfillment? Family, friends are meaningless?

Come on everyone...imagine outside the box!!!

Exactly, CoAspen.

Yes, family, friends, and the simple "joy" (which is caused by chemical reactions) of life are all utterly meaningless if there is no ultimate purpose in which at least one thing you do has the minutest significance even after our planet is destroyed. Sure, you CAN enjoy those things without believing in God, but by thinking that there is some sort of point or fulfillment in those things you are really creating your own imaginary ultimate purpose, in which case you might as well be a theist, because at least it makes sense for theists to believe in "purpose".

The ultimate purpose would be to enjoy the life you have! Nothing wrong with that!

I think the reason why Christians have trouble with this concept, no God, because we have been taught that there is no purpose to existense with out God. The animal kingdom seems to 'enjoy', what ever that means for them, and continuew to exist with out any apparent knowledge of God or life after death. So why can't the 'higher' order of humans find purpose?

So, what I am hearing, is that people are 'good' only because there is a God and a future after death. The adage 'do to your neighbor as you want them to do to you' has no value to them with out the reward.

As asked in the original question or at least insinuated, why are you serving God? Maybe we could understand better the story of the two groups of people serving God, but yet one group is rejected and the other is accepted. This question being posed and the answer says much about our motives. A case can be made that our 'service' to mankind and to Godmis selfishly motivated. NO God....then I don't care!!! I might as well curl up and die!

CoAspen, I so very much appreciate your post. It resonates with an idea I've been thinking on for the past 6 years or so: "The ultimate purpose would be to enjoy the life you have!"

Even though this thread is about "what if...there were no God", I truly believe that our sole purpose is to enjoy life, that ideally, God wants nothing more than for us to truly enjoy the good life He has prepared for us. I even created a term for this: euanthropism--living a good, human life as God intended us to do. He does not ask us to be anything more (or less) than human. And He does provide a great list of guidelines for us to follow to find the ultimate happiness in life.

It's not about sinning or pointing out one another's faults. Life is about finding the road to happiness and living it as He intended.

I'm not saying that I'm only "good" for the rewards... but if there was no God, there would be no moral code higher than myself. So I wouldn't need to be "good" because I would determine "good", and "good" would be what's "good for me", which is pretty much how things operate unless we are either conditioned by society to maintain a survivable level of "goodness" or believe that there is a God who is good.

To just enjoy life and be good because that is what is most happy for us even though it won't matter in a million years... just sounds sentimental to me. And you don't find much sentimentality in a godless world.

Since we don't know what animals are thinking, what we determine their motives to be in living in relative harmony depend on our worldview. While we might say that animals are good and happy because they work together and seem to enjoy things, others might say that animals cooperate so that they can just survive because we live in a big scary pointless world.

I'm not saying I disagree completely with either of you... but there really would be no ultimate purpose, especially not one as happy-sounding as "just enjoy life". Maybe more like "the Big Crunch" or whatever the theory of The End is these days.

I didn't think the OP asked or insinuated that as part of the idea at all.

But if it did, why am I serving God? I'm not sure I am. I'm an altruistic person by nature. And NO, I don't want to discuss what "nature" means!!!!!

HEY ALL

there will be people in heaven that never knew
about JESUS sacrifice so with this in mind there
will be people living a godly life.....so these
people have to have lived their life having some
morals and standard to live by

dgrimm60

I tend to agree with you dgrimm.

pk

PKRAUSE

WOW that is neat we agree

dgrimm60

But if they go to heaven, then they believed in God... right? So that doesn't really have anything to do with "what if you didn't believe in God".

The notion that there is no morality without Christianity simply does not survive an open-eyed look around...

Sure there can be morality without Christianity... just not without any sort of belief in a higher power. If there is nobody or nothing to determine morality other than ourselves, there's no morality at all. If we happen to not kill each other, it's because we are intelligent enough to know that killing people will probably end in some sort of punishment, not because we believe that it's wrong to murder other people. Presented with the choice of murdering someone or being killed ourselves, we'll take care of ourselves.

Here's Kohlberg's scheme that I mentioned earlier:

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation (How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?)

Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (Social norms) (The good boy/good girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality)

Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)

Can you see, Sivart, that your response above assumes that everyone in the world is operating at Stages 1 and 2 (i.e. Level 1) of this hierarchy of forms of moral reasoning?

I'm talking about the logical conclusions of atheism. Most people would rather think happy thoughts than try to figure out WHY they think such-and-such is wrong. "Good" atheists are in the first four stages; they are "good" because society says they should be good and they are rewarded for good and punished for bad. They are not "good" because they believe that there is any universal moral code.

Can there be a universal moral code without a divine guarantor? Can a universal moral code arise entirely from 'within' humanity?

Yes, I believe its possible, although I', not sure it can be proven since man kind seems to have chosen to invent 'Gods' for themselves and not always calling them "gods".

I disagree with this in part. My father and my step-mother are atheists. I can agree that they are not "good" because they believe that there is any universal moral code; however, I do not agree that they are "good" because they are rewarded for good and punished for bad. Rather, they act out of an internal sense of kindness toward others--some might define this kindness as "love" (I know, I certainly do). They fed their children, they gave their children love and encouragement; they helped the needy, gave to the poor; they cared for one another and for their elderly parents; the extended their hand to others in need; and so on and so forth.

All Good comes from God.

Jesus says that any good done without him is nothing. I always thought that was very interesting.

pk

Has anyone seen the movie "The Invention of Lying"? The premise is along the lines of the OP, that there is no GOD and no satan. The people tell the truth--according to them--to the point where if they think it they say it--even if it is painful to the other person. The movie was really funny! But all the way through it I kept thinking about this thread--because I have no life like that--anyways, these people still had a "moral" code of sorts, they still had police and jail, but they believed everything the other person said, because no one lied. They even showed how a burglary would go in this society.

I won't give any more away in case anyone would like to watch it, but it was very good, especially in light of this thread.

LIZ

THIS sounds like a interesting movie

dgrimm60

In correction of my previous post, #325263:

I apologize for using the quote feature. My original post, which can be seen in this thread on page 7 contained a quote from the person I was responding directly to. Without the quote, I felt that my response makes little sense. Therefore, I am restating, using original words, the point I was trying to make in the first place.

SivartM (forgive me for not quoting you) you implied, but did not say directly that "non-bad" non-believers-in-God are not in Kohlberg's *cough* *cough* last two stages, but rather the former ones; that non-believers-in-God are non-bad due to the fact that their peers on this planet dictate they should be non-bad and they are meted according to their behavior.

SivartM, you also implied, but did not say directly, that these non-believers-in-God are not non-bad due to the fact that these humans adhere to the idea that there is an all-encompassing good-behavior model.

Now, with those thoughts in mind, I sa:

I disagree with this in part. My father and my step-mother are atheists. I can agree that they are not "good" because they believe that there is any universal moral code; however, I do not agree that they are "good" because they are rewarded for good and punished for bad. Rather, they act out of an internal sense of kindness toward others--some might define this kindness as "love" (I know, I certainly do). They fed their children, they gave their children love and encouragement; they helped the needy, gave to the poor; they cared for one another and for their elderly parents; the extended their hand to others in need; and so on and so forth.

HEY ALL

I have heard it said that all moral laws and
standard of any country or eithic group of people
get their laws and morals and standards for the
bible......if this is the case then with out GOD
there is no law....no morals....no standards


just thinking here

dgrimm60

Time for bed now, but I have an idea for a parallel theistic and atheistic consideration of each of Kohlberg's stages in a bit more detail, which I will most likely write as a blog post tomorrow morning and link to this thread in the hope that it will be useful/interesting.

BRAVUS

WELL good night and sleep well

dgrimm60

You're thinking with your current belief system. The question is to think with out it. With out a God. Could there be a society existing with out a diety. So I take it that you believe that is impossible, yet we do have examples, which I have alluded to, that suggest it would be possible. Can people explaine how it is not possible without useing their current belief system as the reason??

Since I created this thread I think I shoild add some input here. It seems there are 2 main schools of thought here: 1)I'm only good because there is a God and 2)why be good if there is no God?

When I spoke to my wife about this, her response was, "Wow, I guess they just need to grow to have goodness be a part of who they are?"

Finally another question keeps coming to mind, which is why do some Adventists have so much trouble thinking about ideas if God isn't in the picture? I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that I'm worried that some of us haven't been educated to think in wider dimensions and to think for ourselves. EGW warned us that we must think not like others but for ourselves.

Alex (sorry for quoting my wife )

There is a 3rd school of thought that you didn't mention.....several of us have said WE WOULDN'T CHANGE THE WAY WE ARE.

But gaaimbmodmotfa.

In my opinion it's not really a matter of whether or not goodness is somehow inherent in us. My point is that having a universal moral standard without a god is impossible... so if we want to be honest with ourselves, why try to be "good" when there is no "good" anyway? If it's somehow inherent in us, it's just religious and social oppression... and it doesn't matter what we do. So if you feel guilty for something, ignore it, because you aren't doing anything "wrong".

Basically, whether or not we seem to have some inherited tendencies toward "goodness" (no doubt brought on by closed-minded religionists), it still doesn't matter what we do, because there is no universal moral standard. If someone follows those inherited tendencies toward "goodness", good for them, but such a thing is unnatural, and they shouldn't expect other people to not kill them and plunder their goods.

SIVARTM

DID YOU READ my post about 7 post back same thinking here


dgrimm60

ALEX

ABOUT you wifes quote that sounds like evolution


dgrimm60

in skimming over this I can say

Some of the most Professing Christians are the meanest folks I have encountered.

Some of the confirmed Atheist (not those who are just too lazy to investigate God) are the most moral folks.

Some years ago in USA Today, it has some stats between confirmed Atheists, and Southern Baptist, and only something like 2% of the Confirmed (belonging to an Atheist organization type) the Southern Baptist had around 50% divorced.

I am not saying Divorced are always immoral, nor are both parties etc etc

As promised, blog post: http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=1562

It's longish, but hopefully interesting and useful in this discussion.

I personally never claimed that all morality came from Christianity. I said that without "A god", or some "higher power" or "mystical force" or whatever, there would be no morality above the individual. I can do what I want, and you can do what you want. From there on it's "survival of the fittest".

Atheists who are good people and act kindly and love their children and believe in right and wrong (at least in practice if not in theory) are either doing so because society says to be good or because they are just living out their inherited tendencies to "good" that came from theistic ancestors believing in some sort of moral code.

I didn't see that as a running theme in the thread at all. Some people said it, but there were those of us who didn't think we would change at all.


but here again, momn

Interesting blog bravus. But on one comment you made about India and China. Don't forget that there where a couple of apostles I believe that did get to India and China and if not apostles than a few missionaries made it that far. There are quite a few Christians in those countries. I believe that Christianity made it to almost all areas of the world. So there are christian influenices throughout many other religions.

pk

I used to think all the time without God in the picture. But for the past 4 years or so, God has become everything for me. Sure, I can go back to thinking the way I used to, but why would I want to? Thinking without God led me down a dead-end road without God for several decades.

Neitzsche was an atheist, in fact the father of modern atheism, yet all of his writings show that God, or rather the signifance of God's absence, was always a part of his thinking.

Thinking for ourselves does not mean that we won't think as some other people do. But we shouldn't be merely copying others, or reflecting other men's thoughts. To do us any real good, beliefs have to become part of ourselves.

As long as we're referencing Ellen White, we might as well reference the fact that she never advised people to dismiss God or the Bible from their thinking. There's nothing "wise" or "intelligent" in omitting God from one's viewpoint.

She didn't mean that we shouldn't take into consideration what Christ and the prophets taught. She meant that we should study those things, think them through carefully, know what we believe and why we believe it, and learn to apply the principles of the gospel to our lives personally. But this is not at all the same as thinking without God in the picture. I don't see a bit of advantage to doing that.

Very good points John, I'm in agreement with them.

pk

BRAVUS

YES THIS was an interesting and long article...but
each stage has to have some foundation of what morals
are or are not......where does this foundation come
from???? if we each person can choose their foundation
then these 6 catagories are possible to accept.....

like PKRAUSE their are chirstians in almoste every
country.... so with that said we are back to what foundaion
even other relgions have some type of god that they
worship and claim their morals from.....

the only group would be atheist that claim no higher power
to gain their morals from

which brings me back to what I WAS TOLD that all
laws and morals and standards from every nation and language
groups and got their laws---morals---standards from
the bible

dgrimm60

The hypothetical is always controlled completely by it's creator. TV is a good example but given that...since the thread demands no God,who then determines if there is such a thing as good? Who decides a contrasting bad or does that exist? How would we be able to know with a certainty which was which? If history has shown us anything, concerning this, the most obvious answer would seem to be, the strongest! Didn't Adolf Hitler and others determine the meaning of moral? Nazi guards never flinched when asked to eliminate the vermin.Didn't the streets of Paris run red with blood under the watchful eye of the Goddess of Reason?I'm not sure that EGW intended that thinking for ourselves should include eliminating the truths of Scripture from the equation.Would we just need to grow into being good?Hypothetically speaking,maybe.

PKRAUSE

I think that the disciple THOMAS went to INDIA

dgrimm60

PKRAUSE


and yes there have been missionaries in almost
evey country

dgrimm60

Just because there's no God doesn't automatically mean there's no good.

And all laws and morals do NOT come from the Bible.

HEY ALL

they reason I SAID this is because most countires have
laws against stealing---laws against killing laws against
adultery----laws against lying or false witness----they have morals to repect their parents and the elderly----they have
laws or morals about not taking thier god name in vain

were do these countires get these laws???? did each
country or group of people just come up with these laws


all of these are in the bible

now I AM NOT TRYING to get into a arguement all I
want people to see that most if not all laws were
GOD'S LAWS from the beginning

dgrimm60

Pam how do we know there's not? :):):):):):)

pk

(teaching my daughter to drive this afternoon, so it will be a few more hours until I can respond to any of the interesting points raised)

is she going to be ok? Some (weaker) dad's can lose it and panic...

Because I confirmed it with higher authorities, in answer to pk's question.

*******

dgrimm60 Read Hammurabi's Code

Of course you are right, but without God and without the Bible, it's all just a matter of opinion. Someone's "good" may be someone else's "bad," and only the most powerful or the majority can enforce their value system through laws which determine what's legal and illegal, i.e., "right" and "wrong." If someone comes up to you and smashes you in the face or steals from you, it will make you mad and you can say it's wrong according to human laws, but none of that will matter to the one who takes those actions if he's convincted there's no God and no moral law. If there's no universal law, and he can get away with it, there's no reason from the criminal's viewpoint why he shouldn't do it.

Morals that come from the state are changeable. If our freedom does not come from God, then the state is the one who gives it to you; and if it gives it to you, it has the right to take it from you whenever it has the will and the power to do so.

God's existence is the only guarantee of justice in the universe. Without Him, the only justice is that which exists in this present life, and I think everyone would agree that there is little justice in the here and now. Untold millions of innocent people, including millions of children, have been slaughtered without their murderers being caught or punished. And even if the murderer is caught, there still is often no justice because they are either found not guilty or else they serve only a few years in prison. If there is no God and no afterlife-- no "judgment"-- then it seems obvious that the universe is completely indifferent to any of humanity's concepts of justice or morality.

[Regarding the OP...]

Because no factual reality can be proven or disproved by theory
the question can only elicit opinions of what is thought to be possible with no assurance of certainty. Look at how many theories of past accepted masters of science, are proving to be false after all, when subjected to the light of present day technology and modern discoveries.
Regards!

The moderator, Tom, doesn't want any quotes on this thread.

And I might note for those not paying attention to the rule that I may respond by simply deleting the whole post rather than trying to figure out how to edit it for contextual sense...