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#327157 - 2010-01-26 06:07:14 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: Dr. Rich]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich
Mark, your work I find is truly focused upon the Investigative Judgment and should be taken as such. Perhaps I was too hasty to cast arrows on issues that did not have much to do with the IJ.

Here is what I have observed in regards to the IJ:

Jesus said (and I do believe he didn't lie) that He was the Passover Lamb. Scripture and data from computer will concur that Jesus' death was on the day of Passover, the 15th day (just before evening) of the 1st month after the spring equinox.

Looking at scripture in the Old Testament one can find that the first Passover lamb(s) were killed so that the blood could be used to place around the door openings--but for one purpose-IF they obeyed the words of God it would SAVE the lives of the first born male of the families. It had nothing to do with the women and those that were not of the first born. The Lamb was not sacrificed for anyone's sin. It was sacrificed to get people to OBEY what God commanded. Therefore, no one's sin was placed upon this lamb.

It truly appears that Paul and other writers mixed this sacrifice up with the Atonement sacrifice. Yes, John the "B" was mixed up too, for he was preaching that Jesus would be their king as in what I call "plan A" which was IF Israel had actually done what was prophesied in Daniel 9:24--but they didn't, so "plan B" took over. Evidence for this is found in Matthew 21:43

Yes, Jesus did give Himself in the place of Adam. Adam was to have been killed by God on the same day he disobeyed God. Therefore God killed His only begotten son (as Abraham was going to do) in the place of Adam, so that all of us (Adam's offspring) could have a chance to be saved--as what the Passover portrayed. But this death only makes it possible to be saved IF one OBEYS God's word as found in Revelation 12:17.

As for the Atonement, I will present my take on that later. But as for the Investigative Judgment, please read Revelation 11:1-2 and you will find that there is two judgments. The first is for those who worship in the temple, the second is for a later time. Neither is an 'investigative judgment' as in the sense EGW presents. What this shows, is there are basically two groups that are being judged at a different time.

In Revelation 7 you will find these two groups. The first are the bondservants of God who have been sealed prior to the time of trouble. It is they who testify to the truth during the time of trouble and after that we see another group who are judged and found righteous who come out of the time of trouble because of the ACTIONS OF THE SAINTS.

All of this follows what the Atonement portrayed. First to have their sins forgiven was the High Priest. Jesus (as the High Priest) said that He became sanctified so that we can also become sanctified (John 17).

Next was the Priest tribe. This group represents those found in the first judgment on Revelation 11:1-2--those from the Kingdom of Heaven, being the 144k. Next was the Nation of Israel, which represents the 5 wise virgins.

I hope you get the picture here. No, it is not what is presented in ANY Christian denomination, much less the SDA church, but it comes straight from the bible without anyone's hearsay evidence to taint it. Enjoy!



I think the place to start here is Leviticus and the meaning of sacrificial system. Leviticus does describe the laying on of hands before the animal was sacrificed. Transfer is used consistently to represent transfer e.g. guily upon a blasphemer, ordination, healing etc.
You say the Passover sacrifice was for a different purpose than bearing sin. What do you think about Hebrews, that blood is for the cleansing from sin.Heb. 9:22, sugests blood is central to sin purification.

Are the saints saved by their actions or are their actions a result of their salvation?

In Rev. 11 those judged first are the worshippers of God which is consistent with the IJ.
The IJ is pictured in Daniel 7:9-10 which also precedes the judgement on the unrighteous.
And in Rev. 14:7 the hour of judgement is come, (present tense) before Jesus returns.

Jesus' sanctification was not for remission of sin, but to perfect the sacrifice for our salvation.

I can't see their being two separate judgements on the righteous, in Rev. 11 and Dan. 7 there are only two groups connected with the judgement, not three.

Clearly there is the 144k and the great multitude, the identity of which is not clear, but these two groups are not mentioned separately in connection with the judgement process.

There are a lot of issues raised here, how about lets start with Leviticus?

God Bless

Marc

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#327510 - 2010-01-26 23:04:00 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
wayfinder Offline


Registered: 2009-06-27
Posts: 1414
Loc: California
Levitivus 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.

Exodus 12:5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old ; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 'You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

Deuteronomy 16:2 NAS
"You shall sacrifice the Passover to the LORD your God from the flock and the herd, in the place where the LORD chooses to establish His name.

John 18:28 NAS
[Jesus before Pilate] Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early ; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.

John 19:14 NAS
Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover ; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King !"

The Passover lamb was unique among the sacrificed animals. The Passover lamb was to be eaten by the members of the household. It was never offered as a sin offering. The Passover was the first holy convocation of the year for Israel and signified a new beginning in righteousness for the kingdom. The kingdom of God had been purchased with the blood of the Passover lamb and were expected to remain righteous. The purchase with blood is unique to the Passover lamb, because it's blood was uncontaminated with the sin of the kingdom, thus a new beginning.

Matthew 16:21 NAS
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

The importance of the third day arising, was that was the day of firstfruits during the seven days of the feast of unleavened bread.

The firstfruits were waved before God and belonged to Him. This makes the following statement by Jesus meaningful. Jesus is saying to Mary I must present Myself before My Father.

John 20:17 NAS
Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father ; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' "

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#327512 - 2010-01-26 23:08:04 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: wayfinder]
RLH Online   content
Mr. Murphy's daddy


Registered: 2009-07-07
Posts: 19000
Loc: North Carolina
So what are you trying to say wayf?

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#327568 - 2010-01-27 05:07:15 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: wayfinder]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
Originally Posted By: wayfinder
Levitivus 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.

Exodus 12:5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old ; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 'You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

Deuteronomy 16:2 NAS
"You shall sacrifice the Passover to the LORD your God from the flock and the herd, in the place where the LORD chooses to establish His name.

John 18:28 NAS
[Jesus before Pilate] Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early ; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.

John 19:14 NAS
Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover ; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King !"

The Passover lamb was unique among the sacrificed animals. The Passover lamb was to be eaten by the members of the household. It was never offered as a sin offering. The Passover was the first holy convocation of the year for Israel and signified a new beginning in righteousness for the kingdom. The kingdom of God had been purchased with the blood of the Passover lamb and were expected to remain righteous. The purchase with blood is unique to the Passover lamb, because it's blood was uncontaminated with the sin of the kingdom, thus a new beginning.

Matthew 16:21 NAS
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

The importance of the third day arising, was that was the day of firstfruits during the seven days of the feast of unleavened bread.

The firstfruits were waved before God and belonged to Him. This makes the following statement by Jesus meaningful. Jesus is saying to Mary I must present Myself before My Father.

John 20:17 NAS
Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father ; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' "


Hebrews 9:
13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

This clearly links the blood of bulls and goats to the blood of Christ.

And then in verse 22:
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The blood of the sacrificial animals pointed to Christ's blood on the cross and provided forgiveness of sins. It was life for life, the life of the Son of God to ransom the people under sentence of death.

God Bless

Marc

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#328286 - 2010-01-29 06:29:24 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
Jesus’ death as a sin offering is clearly identified in Hebrews 13:
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

That he bore our sins is stated in 1 Peter 2:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

God Bless

Marc

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#328403 - 2010-01-29 13:45:05 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
teresaq(sda) Offline
Learning to take it to Jesus


Registered: 2009-04-01
Posts: 7553
Loc: Same as home church
Originally Posted By: rasell
I've authored a book entitled "Exploring the Heavenly Sanctuary".

It answers questions like, is the heavenly temple real, what its purpose is, what is the sabbatismos, and much more. Its all biblically based with academic references in the end notes.

It can also be read online at Adventist Enterprises

I studied at Newbold College, got a BA/MA in Theology/Religion, worked as a licensed minister for five years, and now am doing literature evangelism.

God Bless

Marc
just from a quick skim your book looks pretty good!!
Originally Posted By: rasell
This is taken from my book:
In the sacrificial rites we have a picture of Jesus, the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29). The paradox[xxii] is that the One who was totally innocent was counted as guilty so that the guilty would be counted as innocent. A strange transfer took place in the sacrificial service, the guilty escaped death by the death of the innocent lamb. Jesus voluntarily offered to take our place and suffer because of His great love for us (Hebrews 10:5-7; John 10:15-17). Nevertheless, His death was a great injustice. On the cross, Jesus endured supernatural sufferings as the wrath of His Father fell on Him. He now stood in the place of condemned sinners and felt the awful desolation of the lost. Jeremiah said, “The harvest is past, the summer is ended and we are not saved” (Jeremiah 8:20). Jesus in His agony exclaimed, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me” (Matthew 27:46) in fulfilment of Psalm 22:1. Surrounded by a legion of evil angels[xxiii], betrayed, rejected by His own people and cut off from God, Jesus perished because of God’s love for mankind. A mysterious interchange happened at the sacrificial offering, the sinner came away innocent and the innocent one bore the guilt of the sinner.
it is "mysterious", isnt it?

ive been briefly studying from the pioneers and it seems they point out that the sin offering symbolizes the death deserved by the one who had sinned. really brings it home-in a horrible way.
_________________________
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

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#328451 - 2010-01-29 17:23:04 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: teresaq(sda)]
dgrimm60 Online   content


Registered: 2001-08-19
Posts: 31389
Loc: dickson tenn
TERESAQ

that is why the death of JESUS is so amazing and yet
so wonderful

dgrimm60

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#347695 - 2010-03-26 10:29:56 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: John317]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
If anyone has read this book and would like to give customer feedback on Amazon please do, I had a strange feedback on Amazon.co.uk for this book. You can leave feedback on Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk

God Bless

Marc

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#348959 - 2010-04-01 05:15:03 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
Hello, I wanted to explain what my book has added to the sanctuary questions.
The biggest challenges to the sanctuary doctrine is the "within the veil" statement in Hebrews, which opponents say means Jesus entered the Most Holy Place at his ascension to the right hand of the Father.
They also say this shows that the day of atonement was fulfilled at the cross and 1844 is a non starter.

The answer to this is simply as follows:
1. traditionally we have argues that "within the veil" is either the outer veil, or the inner one, but both of these have problems, a more foundational question needs to be asked, is Hebrews referring to a veil in heaven, it seems that he is using the veil of the earthly tabernacle as a symbol of Christ's entrance into the Presence of God just as the High Priest entered the Presence once a year on the Day of Atonement. Hebrews is simply using the Day of Atonement rite as a symbol of Christ's entrance to God's Presence in heaven. It is not making a statement about where Christ is in heaven, that is going beyond the context of the book of Hebrews, they were not concered where Christ was in the temple, only that the earthly temple was now obsolete and access to God is provided by Christ in the heavenly temple. The exact location of Christ in heaven is never addressed in Hebrews which speaks of the "ta hagia" holy places in heaven, a reference to the whole sanctuary

2. Although the presence of God resided in the Most Holy Place in the tabernacle, we need to remember that in the heavenly temple things are different. Hebrews gives a number of departures to the shadow based on Scripture. A better priesthood and sacrifice for example. In the heavenly temple the presence of God is not limited to one apartment, Daniel 7 suggests movement, and Revelation also suggests movement from the holy to most holy place. In Revelation 4-5 Jesus is pictured in the holy place after His ascension in the Presence of God. The problem is that people assume the heavenly must conform to the shadow, must this is not necessarily so, because the reality is greater.

3. Richard Davidson has shown how there is a Christological, Ecclesiologial and Eschatalogical fulfilment to the feast days and temple symbols, So we can affirm an initial fulfilment of the Day of Atonement at the Cross, but this would not exhaust the full meaning of the rite. The Jewish understand of the Day of Atonement was the judgment when every one's destiny was sealed.

The arguments about which veil in heaven Hebrews refers to are not productive because Scripture does not reveal that.

If you would like to discuss these points please do so.

God Bless

Marc

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#348962 - 2010-04-01 06:55:55 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-13
Posts: 31279
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA


I'd like to hear your explanation of what practical difference it makes to an individual in his daily life whether he accepts the view you take of the Investigative Judgment or not.

For instance:

1) Does understanding the IJ make the believer a better and more loving Christian?

2) Does understanding and believing the IJ make one better prepared for Christ's coming? If so, how?

3) In the Great Controversy, it speaks of "new duties" that are required of us and it says we become aware of these duties as we follow Jesus' work in the heavenly sanctuary. What are these new duties?

4) What are the benefits that we will experience if we follow Jesus in His High Priestly work in heaven-- benefits that will be lost on those who do not follow His mediation there?

5) Why is it important for the Seventh-day Adventist church to keep the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment? What do you see as the consequences for the church if it gave it up?

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