Wayne wrote: "...that we either give undue emphasis to this fruit or we do not understand it."

The word "either" implies that there are two points. (1) we give undue emphasis or (2) we do not understand it.

All I wanted to make clear is that there is another side to this issue. One can understand it AND not agree with it.

And Richard, where did Jesus say that by the 'grace of God', we can keep the ten commandments?

You need to take a look at what God told Cain about 'not sinning'. It has nothing to do with God's grace. If one does not obey the ten commandments don't blame God. You have a choice to make and it is YOUR choice, not God's.

My goodness, next thing you will write, Richard, is that when we sin it is totally Satan's fault. Or it is the fault of our 'flesh'. Such nonsense is very childish an irresponsible.

Nobody here has blamed God for anything. You're the one who comes off looking childish and irresponsible, when you have to make things up that nobody ever said. You need to go wash the lies out of your mouth.

Richard, you wrote that we can keep the ten commandments 'by the grace of God'. All I pointed out is that God's grace has nothing to do with this--because it is YOUR choice to keep them or not.

You're still lying Rich. Go wash it out some more. Use soap this time.

It's true you have to choose to keep the commandments. But that doesn't mean that you don't need God's help to do it. How is your choice working out for you BTW? Are you keeping the commandments perfectly on your own? Is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps allowing you to live without sinning?

Come on Richard ... you can do better than that.

There was more I could have said.

Yes, you (Richard) could have said this: that when we sin it is totally Satan's fault. Or it is the fault of our 'flesh'.

The way you have things is that we can only keep the commandments by the grace of God. Richard, it appears you have no concept on what God's grace is all about.

Genesis 4:6-7 gives us the straight and real answer to this issue. God told Cain if YOU do well. God did NOT say "by my grace you will do well". God clearly warned Cain that sin was 'crouching at the door and it's desire is for Cain. But then God when on to tell Cain: "but YOU must MASTER it!"

Nowhere do I see that God told Cain that by His grace Cain could avoid sin. He told Cain just the opposite. All the blame is upon each person and it is also each person's choice on whether or not to keep the commandments.

They way you have things is that we need God's grace BEFORE we can be free from sin. SIN is obedience to God's commands and words. One either obeys or not. This is called "choice".

Dr. Rich,
How do you define grace? You're not one of those people who believe that some of the Bible shouldn't even be in the Bible, are you?

Agape`

If one believes s/he understands it AND does not agree with it, then one does NOT understand it. Back down to two.

Agape`

Wayne, I suppose IF you are the one who makes all of the rules--then ya, it's got to be your way or the hiway, right? No room to present facts to you, for your mind is already made up.