Overall Question: Without faith can you really be a Christian?

Memory Text: Galatians 6:9 “And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.”

Sunday – God Is Faithful
Psalm 89:8 Holman “LORD God of Hosts, who is strong like You, LORD? Your faithfulness surrounds You.”
1 Corinthians 10:13 NRSV “No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.”
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NRSV “23 ¶ May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this.”
2 Thessalonians 3:3 NRSV “But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.”
2 Thessalonians 3:3 COMMENTARY BY ALBERT BARNES We often have occasion to know, to our sorrow, that "all men have not faith." We witness their infidelity. We see how they turn away from the truth. We see many who once gave some evidence that they had faith, abandon it all; and we see many in the church who seem to have no true faith, and who refuse to lend their aid in promoting the cause of religion. In such circumstances, the heart is disposed to despond, and to ask whether religion can be advanced in the midst of so much indifference and opposition? At such times, how consoling is it to be able to turn, as Paul did, to one who is faithful; who never fails us; and who will certainly accomplish his benevolent purposes. Men may be faithless and false, but God never is.
Hebrews 10:23 NRSV “Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful.”

Monday – Faithfulness A Sign of the End
Luke 18:8 NIV “I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"”
Luke 18:8 COMMENTARY THE FOURFOLD GOSPEL despite this admonition to pray without discouragement, and this promise to answer with all speed, God's patience with the wicked, and his consequent delays in answering the prayers of the just, will prove such a trial to his people as to leave it questionable whether any of them will have faith enough to pray until the coming of the Lord.
2 Timothy 3:1-5 God’s Word to the Nations “1 ¶ You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time. 2 People will be selfish and love money. They will brag, be arrogant, and use abusive language. They will curse their parents, show no gratitude, have no respect for what is holy, 3 and lack normal affection for their families. They will refuse to make peace with anyone. They will be slanderous, lack self–control, be brutal, and have no love for what is good. 4 They will be traitors. They will be reckless and conceited. They will love pleasure rather than God. 5 They will appear to have a godly life, but they will not let its power change them. Stay away from such people.”

Tuesday – Models of Faithfulness
Hebrews 11 NLT “1 ¶ Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. 2 Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation. 3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen. 4 ¶ It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith. 5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. 7 It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9 And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10 Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God. 11 It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. 12 And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them. 13 All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. 14 Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15 If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. 16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. 17 It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, 18 even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” 19 Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead. 20 It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau. 21 It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff. 22 It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left. 23 It was by faith that Moses’ parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s command. 24 It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to share the oppression of God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. 27 It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. 28 It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons. 29 It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned. 30 It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down. 31 It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. 32 ¶ How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. 33 By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. 35 Women received their loved ones back again from death. But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. 36 Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. 37 Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. 38 They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground. 39 All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40 For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.”
Hebrews 11:1 COMMENTARY BY MATTHEW HENRY It is a firm persuasion and expectation, that God will perform all he has promised to us in Christ. This persuasion gives the soul to enjoy those things now; it gives them a subsistence or reality in the soul, by the first-fruits and foretastes of them. Faith proves to the mind, the reality of things that cannot be seen by the bodily eye. It is a full approval of all God has revealed, as holy, just, and good.,, The Bible gives the most true and exact account of the origin of all things, and we are to believe it, and not to wrest the Scripture account of the creation, because it does not suit with the differing fancies of men.

Wednesday – Faithfulness in Daily Living
Luke 16:10 ASV “He that is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much: and he that is unrighteous in a very little is unrighteous also in much.”
Luke 16:10 COMMENTARY BY ADAM CLARKE He who has the genuine principles of fidelity in him will make a point of conscience of carefully attending to even the smallest things; and it is by habituating himself to act uprightly in little things that he acquires the gracious habit of acting with propriety fidelity, honour, and conscience, in matters of the greatest concern.

Thursday – Faithful Until the End
Matthew 25:1-13 20th Century NT “1 ¶ Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps, but took no oil with them; 4 While the prudent ones, besides taking their lamps, took oil in their jars. 5 As the bridegroom was late in coming, they all became drowsy, and slept. 6 But at midnight a shout was raised—’The Bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!’ 7 Then all the bridesmaids awoke and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the prudent ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the prudent ones answered ‘No, for fear that there will not be enough for you and for us. Go instead to those who sell it, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom came; and the bridesmaids who were ready went in with him to the banquet, and the door was shut. 11 Afterwards the other bridesmaids came. ‘Sir, Sir,’ they said, ‘open the door to us!’ 12 But the bridegroom answered ‘I tell you, I do not know you.’ 13 Therefore watch, since you know neither the Day nor the Hour.”
Matthew 25:13 COMMENTARY–JOHN WESLEY NOTES He that watches has not only a burning lamp, but likewise oil in his vessel. And even when he sleepeth, his heart waketh. He is quiet; but not secure.
Matthew 24:44-50 Weymouth “44 Therefore you also must be ready; for it is at a time when you do not expect Him that the Son of Man will come. 45 "Who therefore is the loyal and intelligent servant to whom his master has entrusted the control of his household to give them their rations at the appointed time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes shall find so doing! 47 In solemn truth I tell you that he will give him the management of all his wealth. 48 But if the man, being a bad servant, should say in his heart, ‘My master is a long time in coming,’ 49 and should begin to beat his fellow servants, while he eats and drinks with drunkards; 50 the master of that servant will arrive on a day when he is not expecting him and at an hour of which he has not been informed.”
Matthew 24:45 COMMENTARY BY ALBERT BARNES In due season. At the proper time. As they need it, or in the accustomed times. This was the office of a steward. Among the ancients this office was often filled by a slave--one who had shown himself trusty and faithful. The duty was to have a general superintendence over the affairs of the family. Applied to Christian ministers, it means that they are to feed the flock of God, to minister to their wants, and to do it as they need it.
Matthew 24:50 PEOPLE’S NT COMMENTARY The majority of the wicked who die in their sins have expected to be better prepared for the end of life.

"FAITH" allows one to believe in and practice a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for and practicing the truth.

"Faith" is the common bond among all false religions--even Christianity.

Jesus did not need faith to testify about the Kingdom of God.

Faith will not be needed in Heaven.

"You can't argue facts with someone who has built their beliefs upon the foundation of faith"....Rush L.

The more truth one knows, the less faith they need.

Jesus never taught "righteousness by faith".

Who then IS the good and trustful servant who will be feeding the fellow servants truth (spiritual food) at the proper time? This can only be ONE person--like Elijah and John the Baptist were, so will this one person will be for the 144,000.

I find it very sad that the person who 'taught' this class has NO CLUE as to the real truth God has given us here. After all, why hasn't Jesus come already is all we need is faith and grace?

You may have no need for faith Rich, and I believe you. But you're wrong if you think it's low on Jesus' list. And you're wrong to try to believe it's not biblical.

Look here what God does with those that have no faith:

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

That's right, he hides his face from them. And here you are telling people they don't need faith. You should be ashamed. What else does the Bible say about faith?

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is proud is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith

1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

Jesus rebuked people who didn't have faith, and praised people who did. He obviously thought very highly of faith. Here He calls faith a weightier matter of the law.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say unto this mountain, Remove from here to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, your faith has made you whole; go in peace, and be whole of your disease.

Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are you so fearful? how is it that you have no faith?

I must have missed the part where Jesus said: "FAITH" allows one to believe in and practice a lie." It looks like somebody is though. Nor could I find where He said "Faith is the common bond among all false religions" Where is that in the Bible? I couldn't find it.

And then there's this:

I couldn't find that in the Bible either. Please give the references of where you found these things. I may want to join this new religion of yours.

Not sure how you can say those things Dr. Rich. You say the more truth you have the less faith you need. That just might be correct. But the way I see it truth and faith are one and the same. We have no way of knowing if the Bible is true, we have to use faith to believe in something we can not see. Just like history books of our nation and world history books on all the other countries, we have to have faith that there is truth in those books. We can not see God or Jesus or the HS even, but we have, or at least I pray, that most of us have the faith to believe that they exist. We have many things that we see that help us to see God, but our faith helps us to believe they are true.
As far as pagans are concerned, I don't for one minute believe they have faith. And if they do, there putting there faith in stone, wood etc. Gods that don't do anything for them.
And for Rush L. statement, than you can't argue creation, the sabbath, etc. because those things are based on faith. You have to believe that God meant those things for all of us, so by faith we except them not by facts.
Well that's my 2 cents worth.

pk

it may be correct for an existentialist, but existentialism is the theology of the devil.

You raise a good point pk. Rich I would challenge you to prove that Jesus Christ really is the son of God. If you cannot do this, then your whole belief system, (yes even yours) is based totally on faith. The very thing you are belittling. The very thing that you say "allows one to believe in and practice a lie without feeling guilty, is the foundation for what you believe.

You come on here and try to destroy other people's faith, while at the same time using faith as the very foundation for what you believe.

The belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God is based totally on faith. There is no other way to believe it, because it cannot be proven. And you will need to keep that faith, until you see him with your eyes in the clouds of heaven.

So you are preaching one thing, and practising another. Doesn't that, by definition make you a hypocrite? Would that not make you a wolf in sheep's clothing? Think about it.

Good points Richard.

pk

Before I present the evidence for proving Jesus is the Son of God, one must clear up the difference between "faith" and "trust". Our coins do not say "In God We have Faith"--and for good reason. Faith is hoping for something when there is no evidence to support it will ever happen. On the other hand, trust is build upon evidence supplied and found when searched for. One can trust someone ONLY when they have had experience with this other person. Scam artists thrive upon people who place their faith on them.

I will make this very brief-for those who want to know more, please contact me personally.

To prove that Jesus was and is the Son of God, one must first present evidence that will tip the balancing scale toward the understanding on who God is. God is a 'name' placed upon a 'family' containing the Father (God Almighty), the Mother (Holy Spirit) and Son, (Jesus Christ who formerly was Michael).

The first evidence I will present is the Old Testament. Narrowing this down some, lets take the book of Daniel. Now some will say that the book of Daniel was written after some of the prophecies took place, but there is evidence within the book showing that Jesus was prophesied before He came to this earth as a baby.

Prophecy is not the same thing as prediction for if it were, then I would have to assume one can't prove the existence of God. The prophecies found in Daniel are 100% true, but only for the ones that conditions for them were given and are now here. If a prophecy had a condition, then this condition must happen before the prophecy will happen or can happen.

One must agree, that only someone with spiritual insight and foreknowledge can make a prophecy that will be 100% true. Only an entity or person like God can tell someone what another dreamed about and what the dream meant. This true especially when giving to this person what is going to happen in the future--and the prophecy does come true, all of it, 100%!

In short and brief, this is some mighty strong evidence that God did and does exist. In fact, this is un-rebutted evidence. There is much more evidence like this but this will be enough for now.

Found in this same book (Daniel) is verses 13-14 of Chapter 7. Here we see the words "One like a Son of Man was coming..." Notice the capitalization of Son and Man. Now go to Dav. 9:24-25 and notice the words "Messiah the Prince". Skip over to Dan. 10:13 and you can read about these Princes. Once of these is called Michael. In verse 21 we can read that Michael is the Prince of the Hebrews. Then notice in verse 12 of Chapter 12 this same prince named "Michael" will stand guard of the sons of Daniel's people--or the Hebrew people.

The New Testament contains the words of Jesus and it also contains the words of others who never met or knew Jesus when He was here on earth. This same Jesus gave the message (Revelation) to an angel so the message that John wrote actually came from God, thru Jesus, thru the angel sent by Jesus.

To prove that Jesus was the Son of God, every one of the prophecies found in Revelation MUST come true for it would be impossible for mere man to predict the future and be 100% correct. And, if they come true (and they have and will) then we have proof that the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitness' are 100% correct. If so, then the words Jesus gave straight from His mouth tell us with no ambiguity, that Jesus was and is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Ok, when you actually study this and see this with your own eyes, it does not take faith anymore to understand that Jesus is the Son of God--evidence is there--just find it yourself!

Richard, is it true that you are in the family of the Holbrooks? If so, how do you prove it? Do you have faith that you are in this family--or do you actually KNOW you are in the family?

Well, the same goes for those whose name change will be in the Family of God for they will be God. Enjoy!

Interesting post, Dr. Rich.

By the way,

When it comes to the differences between "faith" and "trust," can you show evidence for what you are saying? How about Bible evidence, plus evidence from dictionaries, etc.?

Based on my study of both the English use of these two words, in addition to the way they are used in Scripture, I have to conclude that they are fundamentally identical.

That is, unless you are talking about "the faith," which is the message itself, rather than faith and trust, or confidence, in God.

Could you offer examples of verses in the Bible where the substitution of "trust" in place of "faith" would clearly lead to a misunderstanding of the text because of the difference in the meaning of these words?

Here's what I've found:

When the student of NT Greek memorizes vocabulary, he will always say "pistis, faith, trust, belief, confidence, reliance." Those are basic definitions, particularly the first three.

Again, "pistos, faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing, sure, true."

Or, "pisteuo, to place confidence in, to believe, to trust; believe (in), have faith (in), trust (in), have confidence (in)."

The above definitions are taken from Greek-English lexicons by Barclay M. Newman, Jr., United Bible Societies; and by W. J. Hickie, in the Westcott and Hort Greek New Testament, Students Edition.

A look at the English dictionary and thesaurus reveals that "faith" is definited as "1. [Complete trust] confidence, trust..."

The dictionary defines "faith" as "fidere, to trust"; and "3 complete trust or confidence."

Under "trust," the same dictionary has, "1a firm belief in the honesty, reliability, of another; faith..."

On the same word, "trust," (as a verb)the thesaurus gives as a synonymn, "1 ...rely on, put faith in..."

The thesaurus gives for "trust," as a noun: "1 [Reliance] confidence, dependence, credence; see FAITH 1."

Summary: all the evidence that I have found shows that "faith" and "trust" are synonymns, virually identical and interchangeable.

Info taken from Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus, Macmillan, USA, 1996.

Your thoughts?

Rich you haven't proven anything. All you did was talk in a big circle, around the fact that what you believe is held on to and believed in, by faith.

You rattled off some prophecy in Daniel, and then called it un-rebutted truth. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of what you said has been re-butted, and still is being re-butted. There are those, (and they are not small in number) who believe that the book of Daniel was written after those things happened.

I asked you for proof, and all you did was lay out some theory, that requires faith to believe it. The only thing you have proven is that you have faith in something.

At one point you even said: "The evidence is there--just find it yourself!" Is that what you call proof? Judging from some of the things you believe, I think you have more faith than I do.



It's on my driver's licence. I have no reason to doubt it, but I guess I could have been lied to at some point. That's the only proof I have. That and the fact that I turned out to be sorta like my dad.

I believe, as you do, that this is a reference to Jesus Christ, but what difference does it make in your argument that the words "Son" and "Man" are capitalized in the English translations? In the Hebrew manuscripts and in the Hebrew printed texts, all the letters are "capitalized." Would it make any difference if the printed text had "like a human being" or "like a son of man"?

John, when I first stated to write about faith and trust, I was going to write down that wonderful reply you made last year about this same subject, saying that you were among a few who have come to understand that faith and trust is about the same thing. If you recall, I had to agree with you on that at the time. But since that time I have looked a little closer at the difference between the two words.

The dictionaries don't help much with this, but I tried to show a simple way to understand the difference. When you are in the dark, you move about by faith because there is no evidence that you can see anything to trip over. Now if you had been in the room while it was light and could see, then in the dark you could trust your movement because of remembering where things are or should be.

have you ever tried to find an address or a cafe without having a map or some type of direction? Many people try to do this because they have faith they can find it, but when you have a map, gps or directions, then you have more evidence and can find it easier. That is if you put your trust in the gps or map because you have used it before to find things.

I find it unfortunate that Richard does not see where prophecy is any evidence at all. But then he is right that many people don't. Guess what? We all will be in luck in the near future because the events prophesied about in Revelation will soon be taking place. Then I can turn to him and say "See, I told you so"

John, as for the capital letters on the Son of Man, take a look at the Septuagint.

Rich, first of all, you didn't prove anything, other than the fact that you have faith in part of the Bible. And you can't prove anything. So faith is the only foundation you have for your beliefs.

Now you're telling me that you know something is GOING to happen. Now we both know you can't prove that. All you can do is say: You'll See! Now what is that if it's not faith? You've just helped me prove my case, that what you believe is based on faith.

You believe in something you can't prove, see, or touch. Which is the very definition of faith. And you're out here trying to tell people they don't need faith. You crack me up man.

Prophecy is more than enough evidence for me. But that's because I have faith in the Word of God. I can't prove any of that stuff really happened, because I wasn't there. And neither were you. We both believe it because we believe there is a God in heaven, who has told us the truth through his Word. We take it on faith, because neither one of us can prove that there is a God. So quit telling people you don't have any faith.

BTW the stuff that you tell people is going to happen in 2016. Is not going to happen. Just so you can say you heard it here first. I know you have faith that it will. But it's not going to happen that way. In fact, time may not even last that long.

A way to find out if "faith" and "trust" are really different is by substituting one word for another and seeing if it changes the essential meaning.

Let's try it here:

"When you are in the dark, you move about on the basis of trust because there is no evidence that you can see see anything to trip over. Now if you had been in the room while it was light and could see, then in the dark you could have faith in your movement because of remembering where things are or should be.

"Have you you ever tried to find an address or a cafe without having a map or some type of direction? Many people try to do this because they trust that they can find it, but when you have a map, gps or directions, then you have more evidence and can find it easier. That is if you place your faith in the gps or map because you have used it before to find things."

What do you think? Big difference, little difference or none at all?

As a writer, it is true that usually one or the other "sounds" better within any particular phrase, but if we are measuring simply the appropriateness of the words according to essential meaning alone, then it becomes much less important whether we use one word or the other.

None at all.

OK, depending on the ancient manuscript, the Greek manuscript at Daniel 7: 13 looks something like this (except that there are no spaces between words):

... kai idou meta ton nephelon tou ouranou hos hyuos anthropou erchomenos

... KAI IDOU META TON NEPHELON TOU OURANOU HOS HYUOS ANTHROPOU ERCHOMENOS

Literally: "... and look! with the clouds of the heaven as a son of man [one] coming..."

If I were translating it into good English, I'd make it read, "... and, look! coming with the clouds of heaven was One like the Son of Man..."

The ancients didn't capitalize titles and proper names as we're accustomed to doing.

As you can see by comparing Robert Young's Literal translation, which is based on the Masoretic text, the LXX translated the Hebrew fairly literally. (In some parts of the OT, the LXX is more like a paraphrase of the Hebrew.)

The only difference between the Greek translation and the Hebrew is that the Hebrew noun is plural, "heavens," whereas the Greek gives the singular, "heaven."

Another thing Rich. I have seen you many times tell people that Jesus never said you needed faith to be saved. That is a complete falsehood. Jesus calls on people to have faith in order to be saved, more than any other one thing that He says in all the gospels. And you of all people should know that. You claim to study the words of Jesus more than anything else, and yet you read right over every time he makes this call to have faith, without even knowing it.

First of all, I think we can agree that faith is believing in something you can't see, feel, touch, or prove. Right? Let me show you just a few of the many times that Jesus calls on his followers to have faith:


Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, whatever things you desire, when you pray, believe that you will receive them, and you shall have them.

Luk 8:12 Those by the wayside are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mar 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he said unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Joh 11:40 Jesus said unto her, Said I not unto you, that, if you would believe, you should see the glory of God?

Matt 11:22 And Jesus answering said unto them, Have faith in God.

Do you still believe that Jesus never said anything about needing faith to be saved?

In every one of these texts, Jesus is telling his people to believe in something that they can neither see, touch, or prove. (The very definition of faith.) And even more so with us because we have never seen him.

This is but a small portion of the many times Jesus is calling for his followers to have faith. Like I said earlier, this is the one thing that He calls for more than anything else. And you claim to be one of the wise ones spoken of in the book of Daniel, yet you couldn't see this basic truth that has been right in front of your eyes the whole time.

The word in most of these texts that is tranlated "believe" is the word "pisteuo". Strongs #G4100

pisteuo

pist-yoo'-o

From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit

Very good post and terrific quotes. I wrote down lots of those same quotes when I was doing some research recently about the relationship between the gospel Jesus proclaimed and that of the apostle Paul. Jesus clearly taught the necessity of faith.

Some excellent points John

pk

Richard--believe in WHAT? "What" is the issue, not merely believing.

One MUST believe in what Jesus said and taught and not have merely have faith in Jesus. Even Satan believes in Jesus and that and a dollar might buy him a cup of coffee.

You wrote: "Therefore I say unto you, whatever things you desire, when you pray, believe that you will receive them, and you shall have them."

Is this true for you? Is it true for anyone you know? Does it not sound like a 'Gennie in a bottle'?

Jesus also said if you love Him you will abide in His words. He did not say 'if you love Him you will abide in what other people believe have to say.'

My argument is that Jesus never said anything about "righteousness by faith". Did He? Faith and a dollar will only buy you a dollar's worth. Why, because you could have faith in the wrong thing. The "Jesus" you think you have faith in could be Satan himself!

Jesus didn't say this for nothing: "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in You name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice LAWLESSNESS." (Mat. 7:22-23) He went on to say: "Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them...."

He did not say to just have faith on them. One must ACT on them.

Read the new testament and pray for guidence from the Holy Spirit this time, and you will see WHAT Jesus is calling on you to believe. That He is the Son of God, and that He came to deliver us FROM sin, (not in sin). And yes, keeping the commandments is part of that, but He will give you the power to do it, because you can't do it on your own. The difference between the old and new covenant, is that one depends on mans power, and the other one depends on God's power.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matt 19:25,26




First of all, I didn't say that, Jesus did. Here it sounds like you are calling Jesus a liar. Or saying that His words are not reliable. (I know. You of all people. The great self professed Jesus follower.)
If this has not happened for you, me, or anyone we know, then it only points to a lack of faith. Not a lack of truthfulness in Jesus' words, like you are insinuating.

Personally I have never had the need to ask that a mountain be moved. But I have asked for other things that at the time seemed just as hard. And I can testify that He does answer prayer. Praise the LORD!

Can I get an amen?

Yes, you can get an amen. "Believe that you will receive them" is not the same as "hold them in your hand." Still, we have plenty of past evidence of prayers answered to spur us on to more prayer. I think we should ask God for more prayer and better prayer, just like we should ask the genie in the bottle for more wishes.

But, we walk by faith and not by sight. If I need to see that someone else has already received the answer to my prayer before I pray it, this is going to massively curtail my prayer life.

I pray for stuff I have no idea will happen. I pray for people I've never met. I pray for the whole human race.

Think big. Pray big. God is big.

The "Good Lord" picked my vehicle out of a ditch in the Andes and another time gave me a vision as to where to find a lost book 50 miles away. 'Nuff sed

Ya Richard, I will give you a big AMEN! Of course no mountain has moved for me either,(to be honest, I have never prayed for a mountain to move) but I personally have experienced other answers to prayer that would make your hair on your arm stand straight! A couple were life and death experiences. So yes, I do understand about this and you are right-but I call it trust and not faith.

One must remember that Jesus said to seek first the Kingdom of Heaven AND His righteousness--and then all these other things will be given to you. So here we find a BIG condition. Most people that I know are not seeking the Kingdom of Heaven because they don't even know anything about it. And they certainly are not seeking the righteousness of Jesus Christ because they believe they can't live without sinning.

But I have this against what you said about the difference between the old and new testament. If one believes that they have died, as in what Paul taught to die daily, and that since you are dead, that Jesus now lives in you and His righteousness will make your righteous, then where in all this is your power of choice? Paul's gospel makes it very convenient to believe that it does not matter what you do because you (people) have accepted Jesus as their personal savior and He knows you can't keep the law so that is why He died for you already.

And NO--Jesus didn't lie! Jesus did have conditions for salvation though.

I was just sitting here thinking about all the times that you guys have demonstrated that you have no understanding of Paul's writings whatsoever. And it dawned on me. Maybe the fact that you have discarded not only Paul's writings, but many others, is the reason the Holy Spirit won't open your eyes and give you even the most basic understanding. You call the work of the Holy Ghost, the work of Satan. I do believe that is blasphemy. Of the Holy Ghost no less.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

I guess that would also explain the fact that what scriptures you do claim to believe, you don't properly understand either. But have twisted them this way and that, putting all kinds of words in Jesus' mouth that he never said.

Richard, you twisted (deceived) the words I wrote to your understanding. Luke wrote Acts--as such, Acts is not to be trusted as the real truth in a court of law. Anything that Luke wrote is subject to rejection if it disagrees in any way with what the eyewitnesses of Jesus gave us. Luke wrote (as I assume Paul told him to write) that Ananias was given a vision (and I assume again that this vision was the same entity that gave it to Saul)and it was Ananias that restored Saul's sight and caused the 'Holy Ghost' to come upon Saul. It goes on to say that "..immediately he [Saul] proclaimed Jesus..."

Sounds like a story to me on how the Holy Spirit will download the truth to someone so they don't have to learn it from others. As for me, I don't think this is how the Holy Spirit works.

Please do a little homework on this story. Try to find anywhere in this story where it says that Saul REPENTED of his sins?

Dr. Rich I have not figured out what you have against Paul? Did he say something that you can't agree with? or what? It seems to me that he is the most stauchist (sp) supporter of our Lord Jesus Christ. By that I mean he took the message to more place's than the others, and more times. That doesn't take anything away from the others that did there share of bringing the gospel to the world.

pk

You have to make a lot of assumptions for your paradigm to work don't you? That's one of the reasons I don't buy it.

You know what happens when you assume don't you?

JAMES423

THOSE were some very interesting question

I THINK a christian can have faith with out being
persecuted----Satan may have fatih but faith in what???---
and YES I think faith is esential to be a true
christian

dgrimm60

PK, Here is the thing: ANYONE, living or dead right now, that said or wrote ANYTHING different than what Jesus said and taught and given to us to read by His eyewitnesses (see John 14:26) is a problem for me. This includes Joseph Smith, Muhammad, EGW, Richard, John 317, and even the writers known and unknown who wrote letters that were placed into the New Testament by humans who had a political agenda for what they placed there, are a serious problem for me--being a real truth seeker and bond servant for Jesus Christ.

I do not see where Jesus told us that we can become saved by faith by the grace of God. Therefore, anyone, which would include Paul) that said and wrote that we are saved by grace or "righteousness by faith" is a serious problem from me. Especially when I don't see anything like this in the book of Revelation.

Found in the Old Testament, (which I believe is true since Jesus spoke from this and validated it), is a warning from God that anyone who teaches lawlessness is not of God. You can't tell me that Paul's writings have caused confusion as to whether or not the law was done away with or not. He said one thing at one time and then said the opposite at another time. Does this answer your question?

I dunno. This puts Richard and John in some interesting company.

Quick Response:
The sheer number of responses to this fruit of the Spirit implies that we either give undue emphasis to this fruit or we do not understand it. If we do not understand it, then we need remedial training on the subject since this is the fruit through which we receive the grace of God for salvation (Ephesians 2:8).

Agape`

Not so fast Wayne, you forgot a major point on this issue: How about the wrongful emphasis on "the grace of God for Salvation"? No, I know that the grace of God is great and without it no one could understand prophecy in Daniel and Revlelation. But, to simply state that everyone is saved by grace alone is clearly nonsense and destroys the whole testimony of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. This type of understanding completely does away with Jesus' teaching about the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. The one who keeps them shows his love for God.

Woody I would've loved to be in this group. :)
But imagine Dr. Rich didn't even put his name amongst them.
So I guess Dr. Rich that than we should assume that you most be a little above all those others?

pk

No, Ha ha, My name should be there too! I am not above anyone out there. I'm still an old lump of coal, but I'll be a diamond someday!

The grace of God is the power to keep the commandments. I keep the commandments by the grace of GOD.

Dr. Rich,
Did you have an issue with something I wrote? Or, did you just want to take issue with something I did not write? If There is something in my post that you have an issue with, please quote it and let's discuss that. If, on the other hand, you want to take issue with things I did not write, well... you are going to be pretty busy, since there are a lot of things I did not write.

Agape`

Wayne wrote: "...that we either give undue emphasis to this fruit or we do not understand it."

The word "either" implies that there are two points. (1) we give undue emphasis or (2) we do not understand it.

All I wanted to make clear is that there is another side to this issue. One can understand it AND not agree with it.

And Richard, where did Jesus say that by the 'grace of God', we can keep the ten commandments?

You need to take a look at what God told Cain about 'not sinning'. It has nothing to do with God's grace. If one does not obey the ten commandments don't blame God. You have a choice to make and it is YOUR choice, not God's.

My goodness, next thing you will write, Richard, is that when we sin it is totally Satan's fault. Or it is the fault of our 'flesh'. Such nonsense is very childish an irresponsible.

Nobody here has blamed God for anything. You're the one who comes off looking childish and irresponsible, when you have to make things up that nobody ever said. You need to go wash the lies out of your mouth.

Richard, you wrote that we can keep the ten commandments 'by the grace of God'. All I pointed out is that God's grace has nothing to do with this--because it is YOUR choice to keep them or not.

You're still lying Rich. Go wash it out some more. Use soap this time.

It's true you have to choose to keep the commandments. But that doesn't mean that you don't need God's help to do it. How is your choice working out for you BTW? Are you keeping the commandments perfectly on your own? Is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps allowing you to live without sinning?

Come on Richard ... you can do better than that.

There was more I could have said.

Yes, you (Richard) could have said this: that when we sin it is totally Satan's fault. Or it is the fault of our 'flesh'.

The way you have things is that we can only keep the commandments by the grace of God. Richard, it appears you have no concept on what God's grace is all about.

Genesis 4:6-7 gives us the straight and real answer to this issue. God told Cain if YOU do well. God did NOT say "by my grace you will do well". God clearly warned Cain that sin was 'crouching at the door and it's desire is for Cain. But then God when on to tell Cain: "but YOU must MASTER it!"

Nowhere do I see that God told Cain that by His grace Cain could avoid sin. He told Cain just the opposite. All the blame is upon each person and it is also each person's choice on whether or not to keep the commandments.

They way you have things is that we need God's grace BEFORE we can be free from sin. SIN is obedience to God's commands and words. One either obeys or not. This is called "choice".

Dr. Rich,
How do you define grace? You're not one of those people who believe that some of the Bible shouldn't even be in the Bible, are you?

Agape`

If one believes s/he understands it AND does not agree with it, then one does NOT understand it. Back down to two.

Agape`

Wayne, I suppose IF you are the one who makes all of the rules--then ya, it's got to be your way or the hiway, right? No room to present facts to you, for your mind is already made up.

Dr. Rich you do the exact same thing! :)

pk

How can someone disagree with a bliblical premise if they believe in the Bible? I'm confused by what you post.

Agape`

Good point wayne. :)

pk

So pk, prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus? This thread was about the fruit of the Spirit being 'faithfulness'. It then presented a picture where one must have faith for salvation. While there is no argument over this, I simply brought up that one does not need faith in heaven and the more truth you understand, the less faith you need. I did not see where Jesus said that faith will set one free from sin.

After all, don't you agree with me that FAITH allows one to believe and practice a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for, and believing the truth. Truth is singular and absolute. You can't argue anything against the truth.

Therefore, if one can't prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus, then would not this be the real truth?

Is that all your concerned about proving someone right or wrong? You know that we can't prove creation for a fact, but yet be accept by faith that the Bible is correct! So I'm not interested in proving you right or wrong. I'll leave it that we disagree.

pk

If Jesus says to have faith, then why do you say we don't need it?

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering said unto them, Have faith in God.

There. You've been proved wrong. Are you happy?

Luke 7:36-50 contains an interesting narrative that ends in verse 50 with these words of Jesus, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." What is it that you suppose she was saved from? What did Jesus come to save people from (hint: Matthew 1:21)?

Agape`

Yes, faith in Christ, and of course in the Father, are necessary for salvation.

And the Bible says we need always, and continuously, to be growing in faith.

Here's a few places in the Gospels where we're told we need faith:

1) Matt. 9: 22 (Mark 5: 34; Luke 8: 48)-- Jesus said, "Your faith has made you well." Compare Acts 2: 21, where the same Greek word is translated "saved." Significantly, the words "made well" are a translation of the Greek word sozo, and may be translated as "save," "restore to health."

2) Matt. 18: 3, 4-- Jesus said we must have trust and humility and the desire to learn just like a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. (cf. Luke 18: 17)

3) John 1: 13-- People are born of God, not by human will or of the will of the flesh, but it occurs because of belief (firm persuasion, faith) in the name of Christ. (cf. v. 12; John 6: 40)

4) John 3: 16-- Jesus said that whoever believes [has continuous, firm confidence] in Him shall have eternal life.

5) John 11: 25-- Jesus said "he who believes [has continuous, firm confidence] in Me, will live even if he dies..." (cf. vvs. 26, 40)

NOTE: The word "believe" is translated from the verb, pisteuo (Strongs #4100) and is related to the noun, pistis (Strong's #4102), which means, "faith, belief, trust, firm persuasion," etc.

Since you cannot see heaven and have not experienced it or been there before, it should be obvious that you must have faith that it exists.

Perhaps you mean that the more you understand, the less you are conscious of faith because you feel so certain of God's promises. However, the fact is that your certainty is based on faith or trust whether you think of it that way or not. That's not saying that there isn't a great deal of evidence supporting the Bible and God's existence, etc. But it is still evidence of things not seen. Faith is needed because you have not yet obtained the thing hoped for. That is why you still have hope. You won't need hope once you are translated to be with Christ, but until then, you will need more and more faith. In fact, we live by faith and not by sight.

Take, for instance, a man who loves a woman and wants to marry her. He has no doubt she's alive so he doesn't need faith in her existence, yet until they exchange their vows, he needs hope and faith that she'll be his wife. Once they are married and they are together as husband and wife, he no longer needs hope. Now he may hope for other things, but he doesn't need hope that she'll be his wife because he's already realized that hope. That's the way it is in regard to heaven. We hope for it, and must have faith in it, because we still haven't realized it. And the nearer we draw toward the time of Christ's second coming, which is the realization of all our hopes, the more faith in Christ we will need, just as the Son required ever greater faith in the Father the closer He came His death on the cross.



Faith per se will not set anyone free. What's essential is faith or trust in a person, and that person is Jesus Christ, and Him alone. Jesus Christ Himself IS THE TRUTH, and the only possible way to accept Him is by faith. That is to say, we must put our complete reliance and confidence in Him, and in His promises to do exactly what's He promised to do. It is by placing our entire faith or trust in Him that we receive the Truth, because Christ and the Truth are one and the same. It's this Truth-- knowing Him experientially-- that sets us free. It's not through facts about the truth that we are set free, but through an intimate, continuous, personal relationship with Him, of the kind that He offers us in Rev. 3: 20.


This is a false faith, a counterfeit, not saving faith. True faith in Christ, which comes from the Holy Spirit, produces the fruits of the Spirit.



Could you explain this? I agree that Truth is singular and absolute-- Truth being God and God's Word-- but it seems to me people can, and do, argue against just about anyone and anything, including the Truth.



One can only prove something to someone if they are willing to acknowledge it. That requires honesty and sometimes lots of "guts."

Nice response John, and many very good points.

pk

Pk and John, what is it you are wanting me to 'acknowledge'? Are you saying I don't have guts or am not honest? I already told you to PROVE it, don't just tell me and what are you doing all over again--you are tainting my corrector for your benefit.

Overall John, I agree with just about everything you wrote. Trouble is, to honestly believe in someone then you must also believe and abide in the words of the same someone. You could not honestly say you believe in Jesus IF you didn't abide in Jesus' words, could you?

John and pk, how many people have you met from other denominations say they are saved because they believe in Jesus Christ? Most I would say-right? Well then, how many of these people actually abide in the words of Jesus Christ, them being ALL of the Ten Commandments? See the problem? Most of these same people, if not all, only THINK they believe in Jesus because the 'Jesus' they know was presented to them by the words of Paul.

I don't pull any punches here because this whole issue is serious stuff. Yes, you can sugar coat what you want in the fear that you will cause problems with people, but Jesus didn't do that and I too will not do that.

I gotta leave in a little while so I can write much, but no, I'm not saying you aren't honest or have guts. I'm just saying that people can stare at the truth all day long and if they don't to acknowledge that it's the truth, any more additional proof won't do any good. I wasn't thinking of you when I said that as I was of some "clients" I used to work with. They learned from OJ-- never admit to the truth, no matter what the evidence is.