I believe, as you do, that this is a reference to Jesus Christ, but what difference does it make in your argument that the words "Son" and "Man" are capitalized in the English translations? In the Hebrew manuscripts and in the Hebrew printed texts, all the letters are "capitalized." Would it make any difference if the printed text had "like a human being" or "like a son of man"?

John, when I first stated to write about faith and trust, I was going to write down that wonderful reply you made last year about this same subject, saying that you were among a few who have come to understand that faith and trust is about the same thing. If you recall, I had to agree with you on that at the time. But since that time I have looked a little closer at the difference between the two words.

The dictionaries don't help much with this, but I tried to show a simple way to understand the difference. When you are in the dark, you move about by faith because there is no evidence that you can see anything to trip over. Now if you had been in the room while it was light and could see, then in the dark you could trust your movement because of remembering where things are or should be.

have you ever tried to find an address or a cafe without having a map or some type of direction? Many people try to do this because they have faith they can find it, but when you have a map, gps or directions, then you have more evidence and can find it easier. That is if you put your trust in the gps or map because you have used it before to find things.

I find it unfortunate that Richard does not see where prophecy is any evidence at all. But then he is right that many people don't. Guess what? We all will be in luck in the near future because the events prophesied about in Revelation will soon be taking place. Then I can turn to him and say "See, I told you so"

John, as for the capital letters on the Son of Man, take a look at the Septuagint.

Rich, first of all, you didn't prove anything, other than the fact that you have faith in part of the Bible. And you can't prove anything. So faith is the only foundation you have for your beliefs.

Now you're telling me that you know something is GOING to happen. Now we both know you can't prove that. All you can do is say: You'll See! Now what is that if it's not faith? You've just helped me prove my case, that what you believe is based on faith.

You believe in something you can't prove, see, or touch. Which is the very definition of faith. And you're out here trying to tell people they don't need faith. You crack me up man.

Prophecy is more than enough evidence for me. But that's because I have faith in the Word of God. I can't prove any of that stuff really happened, because I wasn't there. And neither were you. We both believe it because we believe there is a God in heaven, who has told us the truth through his Word. We take it on faith, because neither one of us can prove that there is a God. So quit telling people you don't have any faith.

BTW the stuff that you tell people is going to happen in 2016. Is not going to happen. Just so you can say you heard it here first. I know you have faith that it will. But it's not going to happen that way. In fact, time may not even last that long.

A way to find out if "faith" and "trust" are really different is by substituting one word for another and seeing if it changes the essential meaning.

Let's try it here:

"When you are in the dark, you move about on the basis of trust because there is no evidence that you can see see anything to trip over. Now if you had been in the room while it was light and could see, then in the dark you could have faith in your movement because of remembering where things are or should be.

"Have you you ever tried to find an address or a cafe without having a map or some type of direction? Many people try to do this because they trust that they can find it, but when you have a map, gps or directions, then you have more evidence and can find it easier. That is if you place your faith in the gps or map because you have used it before to find things."

What do you think? Big difference, little difference or none at all?

As a writer, it is true that usually one or the other "sounds" better within any particular phrase, but if we are measuring simply the appropriateness of the words according to essential meaning alone, then it becomes much less important whether we use one word or the other.

None at all.

OK, depending on the ancient manuscript, the Greek manuscript at Daniel 7: 13 looks something like this (except that there are no spaces between words):

... kai idou meta ton nephelon tou ouranou hos hyuos anthropou erchomenos

... KAI IDOU META TON NEPHELON TOU OURANOU HOS HYUOS ANTHROPOU ERCHOMENOS

Literally: "... and look! with the clouds of the heaven as a son of man [one] coming..."

If I were translating it into good English, I'd make it read, "... and, look! coming with the clouds of heaven was One like the Son of Man..."

The ancients didn't capitalize titles and proper names as we're accustomed to doing.

As you can see by comparing Robert Young's Literal translation, which is based on the Masoretic text, the LXX translated the Hebrew fairly literally. (In some parts of the OT, the LXX is more like a paraphrase of the Hebrew.)

The only difference between the Greek translation and the Hebrew is that the Hebrew noun is plural, "heavens," whereas the Greek gives the singular, "heaven."

Another thing Rich. I have seen you many times tell people that Jesus never said you needed faith to be saved. That is a complete falsehood. Jesus calls on people to have faith in order to be saved, more than any other one thing that He says in all the gospels. And you of all people should know that. You claim to study the words of Jesus more than anything else, and yet you read right over every time he makes this call to have faith, without even knowing it.

First of all, I think we can agree that faith is believing in something you can't see, feel, touch, or prove. Right? Let me show you just a few of the many times that Jesus calls on his followers to have faith:


Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, whatever things you desire, when you pray, believe that you will receive them, and you shall have them.

Luk 8:12 Those by the wayside are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mar 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he said unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Joh 11:40 Jesus said unto her, Said I not unto you, that, if you would believe, you should see the glory of God?

Matt 11:22 And Jesus answering said unto them, Have faith in God.

Do you still believe that Jesus never said anything about needing faith to be saved?

In every one of these texts, Jesus is telling his people to believe in something that they can neither see, touch, or prove. (The very definition of faith.) And even more so with us because we have never seen him.

This is but a small portion of the many times Jesus is calling for his followers to have faith. Like I said earlier, this is the one thing that He calls for more than anything else. And you claim to be one of the wise ones spoken of in the book of Daniel, yet you couldn't see this basic truth that has been right in front of your eyes the whole time.

The word in most of these texts that is tranlated "believe" is the word "pisteuo". Strongs #G4100

pisteuo

pist-yoo'-o

From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit

Very good post and terrific quotes. I wrote down lots of those same quotes when I was doing some research recently about the relationship between the gospel Jesus proclaimed and that of the apostle Paul. Jesus clearly taught the necessity of faith.

Some excellent points John

pk