Wayne, I suppose IF you are the one who makes all of the rules--then ya, it's got to be your way or the hiway, right? No room to present facts to you, for your mind is already made up.

Wayne, I suppose IF you are the one who makes all of the rules--then ya, it's got to be your way or the hiway, right? No room to present facts to you, for your mind is already made up.

How can someone disagree with a bliblical premise if they believe in the Bible? I'm confused by what you post.

Agape`

So pk, prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus? This thread was about the fruit of the Spirit being 'faithfulness'. It then presented a picture where one must have faith for salvation. While there is no argument over this, I simply brought up that one does not need faith in heaven and the more truth you understand, the less faith you need. I did not see where Jesus said that faith will set one free from sin.

After all, don't you agree with me that FAITH allows one to believe and practice a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for, and believing the truth. Truth is singular and absolute. You can't argue anything against the truth.

Therefore, if one can't prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus, then would not this be the real truth?

So pk, prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus? This thread was about the fruit of the Spirit being 'faithfulness'. It then presented a picture where one must have faith for salvation. While there is no argument over this, I simply brought up that one does not need faith in heaven and the more truth you understand, the less faith you need. I did not see where Jesus said that faith will set one free from sin.

After all, don't you agree with me that FAITH allows one to believe and practice a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for, and believing the truth. Truth is singular and absolute. You can't argue anything against the truth.

Therefore, if one can't prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus, then would not this be the real truth?

So pk, prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus? This thread was about the fruit of the Spirit being 'faithfulness'. It then presented a picture where one must have faith for salvation. While there is no argument over this, I simply brought up that one does not need faith in heaven and the more truth you understand, the less faith you need. I did not see where Jesus said that faith will set one free from sin.

After all, don't you agree with me that FAITH allows one to believe and practice a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for, and believing the truth. Truth is singular and absolute. You can't argue anything against the truth.

Therefore, if one can't prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus, then would not this be the real truth?

Dr. Rich: This thread was about the fruit of the Spirit being 'faithfulness'. It then presented a picture where one must have faith for salvation. While there is no argument over this, I simply brought up that one does not need faith in heaven and the more truth you understand, the less faith you need.

Dr. Rich: I did not see where Jesus said that faith will set one free from sin.

Dr. Rich: After all, don't you agree with me that FAITH allows one to believe and practice a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for, and believing the truth.

Dr. Rich: Truth is singular and absolute. You can't argue anything against the truth.

Dr Rich: Therefore, if one can't prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus, then would not this be the real truth?

Yes, faith in Christ, and of course in the Father, are necessary for salvation.

And the Bible says we need always, and continuously, to be growing in faith.

Here's a few places in the Gospels where we're told we need faith:

1) Matt. 9: 22 (Mark 5: 34; Luke 8: 48)-- Jesus said, "Your faith has made you well." Compare Acts 2: 21, where the same Greek word is translated "saved." Significantly, the words "made well" are a translation of the Greek word sozo, and may be translated as "save," "restore to health."

2) Matt. 18: 3, 4-- Jesus said we must have trust and humility and the desire to learn just like a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. (cf. Luke 18: 17)

3) John 1: 13-- People are born of God, not by human will or of the will of the flesh, but it occurs because of belief (firm persuasion, faith) in the name of Christ. (cf. v. 12; John 6: 40)

4) John 3: 16-- Jesus said that whoever believes [has continuous, firm confidence] in Him shall have eternal life.

5) John 11: 25-- Jesus said "he who believes [has continuous, firm confidence] in Me, will live even if he dies..." (cf. vvs. 26, 40)

NOTE: The word "believe" is translated from the verb, pisteuo (Strongs #4100) and is related to the noun, pistis (Strong's #4102), which means, "faith, belief, trust, firm persuasion," etc.

Since you cannot see heaven and have not experienced it or been there before, it should be obvious that you must have faith that it exists.

Perhaps you mean that the more you understand, the less you are conscious of faith because you feel so certain of God's promises. However, the fact is that your certainty is based on faith or trust whether you think of it that way or not. That's not saying that there isn't a great deal of evidence supporting the Bible and God's existence, etc. But it is still evidence of things not seen. Faith is needed because you have not yet obtained the thing hoped for. That is why you still have hope. You won't need hope once you are translated to be with Christ, but until then, you will need more and more faith. In fact, we live by faith and not by sight.

Take, for instance, a man who loves a woman and wants to marry her. He has no doubt she's alive so he doesn't need faith in her existence, yet until they exchange their vows, he needs hope and faith that she'll be his wife. Once they are married and they are together as husband and wife, he no longer needs hope. Now he may hope for other things, but he doesn't need hope that she'll be his wife because he's already realized that hope. That's the way it is in regard to heaven. We hope for it, and must have faith in it, because we still haven't realized it. And the nearer we draw toward the time of Christ's second coming, which is the realization of all our hopes, the more faith in Christ we will need, just as the Son required ever greater faith in the Father the closer He came His death on the cross.



Faith per se will not set anyone free. What's essential is faith or trust in a person, and that person is Jesus Christ, and Him alone. Jesus Christ Himself IS THE TRUTH, and the only possible way to accept Him is by faith. That is to say, we must put our complete reliance and confidence in Him, and in His promises to do exactly what's He promised to do. It is by placing our entire faith or trust in Him that we receive the Truth, because Christ and the Truth are one and the same. It's this Truth-- knowing Him experientially-- that sets us free. It's not through facts about the truth that we are set free, but through an intimate, continuous, personal relationship with Him, of the kind that He offers us in Rev. 3: 20.


This is a false faith, a counterfeit, not saving faith. True faith in Christ, which comes from the Holy Spirit, produces the fruits of the Spirit.



Could you explain this? I agree that Truth is singular and absolute-- Truth being God and God's Word-- but it seems to me people can, and do, argue against just about anyone and anything, including the Truth.



One can only prove something to someone if they are willing to acknowledge it. That requires honesty and sometimes lots of "guts."