You're right there, Richard.

Our church was raised up by God for the purpose of accepting and teaching the Third Angels' Messages to all the world in order to help prepare a people for the return of Christ. Sadly and tragically, though, Satan has had our church in a holding pattern ever since 1888 when God gave the church an opportunity to go into the Promised Land. The true gospel we've been commissioned to teach is about more than Christ dying and forgiving us. That is the message of the "first apartment" ministry of Christ, which focuses on His covering our sins.

The message of the gospel changed when Christ began His High Priestly work in the second apartment, the Most Holy Place. Today Christ is blotting out sins, not merely forgiving them. Most of the Christian world, including many SDAs, are still living and preaching like Christ is still in the Holy Place. In the book, Great Controversy, Ellen White talks about the necessary "new duties" that people will understand ONLY if we are following [studying] Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

Shane, I agree with you that Adventism has its upgrades. And along with you I have done 12 step work with great results. And I can see how your association with your Adventist community has greatly improved your life.

I would offer though, that just because it has improved your life, doesn't mean that it is universally true or even true at all.

I think when we try and lock down a set of beliefs and hang on to them, it limits our ability to grow. I focus far more on tools, which are mainly what I received with my work with the 12 steps. I think tools take us much farther than beliefs.

For those who fear this approach as going to hell in a hand-basket I would point to the natural consequences of poor choices. A tool that teaches us to pay attention is far more valuable than simply telling someone to stop doing bad things. A tool that teaches us the joy of connecting with our community through empathy creates a bond that needs no instruction.

These methods don't exist in the Bible. Believe me I have looked. If they did exist in Christianity, they have been lost. They do exist in each person, once they are awakened. I have seen this over and over again. That is why I can speak with confidence, because I see this work every week.

To no one in particular! Are we using the word "fear" in its right context? I've always thought that the word fear has not been correctly translated from the original Hebrew! And that it should have been translated as "respect" or something closer to that than the way we know the word fear today.

pk

I believe the tools do exist in the Bible as expressed through the actions of Christ. Man struggled from the beginning to understand God but all to often listened to the first lie of Satan and distrusted God. I totally understand you not being able to see the ideas. Man has all to often hidden the meaning. When God said He loved the world enough to send His Son to die for our wrong doings and that all we needed to do was believe on Him for eternal life...well, that is a very strong statement. Only man has attempted to change that statements meaning, not God.

You are correct, but it is used as a negative because of the belief that it will 'help' our works!

If the word fear means respect then the text which says...

Perfect love casts out all fear.

would say...

Perfect love cast out all respect. :)

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

G5399 fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

G5401 fob'-os
From a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.


as in those who serve God because otherwise He will roast them for hours to days...

If these tools exist in the actions of Jesus, then they aren't communicated very well. I think the reason they are seen as hidden is that they only exist when we figure them out and read them back into the texts. I think results are a far better way to evaluate truth then decoding the Bible.

I don't see love in God sending his son to die for our sins. No death can make up for the results of bad behavior, no matter how cruel or torturous. The suffering has happened already. How can that be made up?

The phrase "believe on him" has no obvious meaning and is one of many vague sayings that get said all the time as if there was this profound magical wisdom behind it. One has to know the meaning before it can be changed.

Substitutionary death is a very low form of ethical justice. I think we can move beyond that. Even humans can forgive and give up the need to punish without sacrificing their first born sons. It seems so contrived and immature.

You're right. The word is phobos and can be translated as fear, terror, affright, astonishment, trembling concern, reverential fear, awe, respect, deference.

It means respect in Rom. 13: 7; 1 Peter 2: 18.

It refers to an object or cause of terror in Romans 13: 5.

You're right, the suffering people go through can never truly be made up. For instance, the awful suffering of millions of innocent children can never be "made up" even by God. Many people who undergo injustices will be lost, and therefore the injustices done to them will never be made right.

By the way, the great Russian author, Dostoyevsky, who was also a Christian, wrote about this very issue in his book, The Brother's Karamazov. It's found in the wonderful chapter called "Pro and Contra." Maybe you've read it. His character, Ivan, an atheist, talks about the suffering of all the innocents and says that those injustices can never be made right. And he's correct. How to "make it up" to all the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of babies and young children throughout history who've been murdered or even tortured by their own mothers or fathers! Can't be done.

But then when man sinned and revolted against the Creator, God allowed man to reap the consquences of his decision. Those consequences include every kind of evil, including the fact that innocents suffer immensely in an unfair world. God never said the fallen world-- where death reigns as king-- will be fair or that He can make everything that's happened be as if it never was. There's a sense in which sin leaves eternal scars that will never go away but will always remind us of the loss that sin brought. Yet God can do the next best thing, and that is to save all who really want to be saved, and give them new, immortal bodies to live with Him forever on the new earth He's going to make.

Sounds like it's better than nothing, anyway-- you think? :-)

On the other hand, do you think that the solution lies in atheistic beliefs, such as those of Neitzsche or Marx? They hold no solution to the injustices of the innocents, either. In fact, it is worse. Because, without God, one's rage at the moral injustices are about as efficacious as raging against the lightening. As Stephen Crane said, a universe without God doesn't care about our rage, let alone the suffering of the innocents.