Great Zeus,man! Is your form of agnosticism a hybrid? A true agnostic cannot argue the nonexistence of a God or gods. Yet you not only do that but you put it in such a way that you are certain NO ONE ELSE can know this either. Are you absolutely certain that this is the case? Your comments are evidently designed to communicate your belief that there is no God (at least that's the natural implication).Is this your final answer or do you leave open the possibility that you may be wrong?

Doug,

My agnosticism is rather mainstream. I don't argue against some higher power or god in the general sense. I don't anthropomorphize any god or gods. And I don't state that there is absolutely no god in general.

There are a whole list of gods that we can easily dismiss because they are knowable. They have descriptions and distinctive characteristics. These are dismissed by the very fact that they are too simple. The god described in the bible is among these. And I have listed the rather simplistic and contradictory, obviously man made, characteristics of this god to make my point.

As far as the god of the Bible, I am reasonably sure that god does not exist. So as far as the god of the Bible is concerned I am an atheist, just as you are an atheist when it comes to Zeus.

God has room for questions and these are very good questions and as Seventh-day Adventists we are in a better position to look at these questions than others as we can look from the view of the Great Controversy, and even more so if you study the theam of milk and honey in the Bible and Biblical history. I'm sorry that I have not had the time to contribute to the topic of suffering, but I know that others here can turn to "Why was sin permitted" and "The orgin of Evil" and make a good start. Let's not act like Baptists trying to deal with this question. We have a foundation that we can start on.

And Cardw; the fact that you are around this discussion shows at least some interest in the topic. You are asking good questions, however I want to ask you if really want to find intellegent ways of dealing with your questions (we may not have every question answered in this life, but we have the millinium to get the more detailed answers) or do you just want to show of and congratulate yourself for having the cleaverness to come up with these questions and have a spirit of "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts" "I'm willing to push my questions on you, but don't try to answer my questions nor give me something else to think about beyond my point of view." spirit.

I'll try to come back and try to share what I can; granted you can dismiss like how you dismissed what I shared about the Old Testament so that you can cling on to superstitions and excuses and traditions, or you can fairly evaluate the evidence.

There are homework assignments I'd like to offer you so that you don't have to take my second hand summeries of the studies, but actually look at where I'd get my ideas from:

The first two are what I mentioned above, the chapter in Patarichs and Prophets titled "The Orgin of Evil" and the chapter in the Great Controversy "Why Was Sin Permitted" by Ellen G. White. Both cover the same topic but with a little different approach each where they have their strong and weak points and their strong and weak points complement each other. The Orgin of Evil was written very rapidly while Why Was Sin Permitted was more sophisisticated. Thus the Origin of Evil has a raw freshness that was lost in the more sophisticated Why was sin permitted. But why was sin permitted has a refinement that the orgin of evil does not have. Read them, look at the sameness and difference between them. Also add to this the chapter "It is Finished" in The Desire of Ages. The book "confrontation" is outstanding as well as articles that Mrs. White wrote around the time she wrote those chapters dealing with the same topics. But at least read the 3 chapters "The Orgin of Evil" "Why was Sin Permitted" and "It is Finished" these are probably the 3 most important chapters that Mrs. White ever wrote and I wish I could get those 3 chapters in every home on earth.

I am not asking you to read the books; only 3 chapters (and it would be wise to squeeze in the small thin book "Confrontation" but I will not add that to the top information to read.)

In addition to those 3 chapters, there are some tapes by a Methodist Archaeologest, Dr. Jim Fleming: They would be "Right Stage, Left Stage, the Geography of the Bible" "The Daughters of my people" (although he equates armegeddon with megedo, however he has a good interpatation of it, but armegeddon means the mount of the congragation) and a series he made with a Methodist pastor "The Hard Side of Life" (Now on the hard side of life it is hard to tell if the pastor believes in the dead going right to heaven when they die or not, and in the workbook he seems to get even farther away from the idea of the dead going to heaven. Another assistant pastor who was with them made a comment of the dead going to heaven which he believed at that time, however about 7 months later I heard that associate pastor talking with a woman telling the truth about heaven and how he changed his understanding from believing that the dead went right to heaven when they died, to believing that the Bible teaches death and the coming resurection day.) You can order them through Biblical Resources (go a head and google Jim Fleming and Biblical Resources), and maybe the hard side of life from the First United Methodist Chruch of Houston TX.

This next one is difficult to find, but you can at least get through interlibarary loan, or in our college libaries and maybe church libaries, but the original 1981, yellow cover with black ink "Sanctuary and the Atonement" and read three of the last four chapters "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" and "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White" parts one and two.

So here are 6 chapters and a couple of tapes, what would only take a relaxing afternoon to spend time with and you can have evidence to build on, which would be better than any of our attempts to try to summerize the information. I'm not asking you to go out and read volume after volume or an entire book, but just dip 7 times in the water of life as presented in these 6 chapters and a couple of tapes.

Kevin,

I would like to give you a little background on the time I have spent exploring these topics.

I have several revisions of the Conflict Series including their first publication as Spiritual Gifts that I have read all the way through many times. When I was 9 years old I had a reading level rated at 12th grade and above. The first time I read these through was at that age. I am thoroughly familiar with almost every approach to these books. I have over 4000 pages of private research into Ellen White and the Bible.

I have looked at a LOT of evidence. There is nothing that you are presenting that I have not covered multiple times. I am very open minded, but I have thought these approaches through and I have even defended them, so I am familiar with the apologetics from many different approaches. I have even better defenses than you are presenting. There are fatal flaws in every apologetic.

I have subscribed to Biblical Archaeology for years and while Dr. Fleming has some interesting background on various ancient times, he is hardly a neutral interpreter of history. There are serious conflicts with the archaeological record and the Bible.

Good, you have dipped in the Jordan 3 of the 7 times, of course you still see the spots, but reveiw the 3 chapters together with the 3 other chapters and the Fleming tapes. And good you have some background with Bible Review, and while there are serious conflicts with the archaeological record and the Bible, there are also serious insights they can give to the Bible. Quit whining about the spots until you dip the 7 times.

Kevin,

All this reference to Naaman and the river Jordon really has no relevance to me reading this again. Frankly the whining about the spots comment is rather condescending and ignores the fact that I have spent enough hours going through this stuff to dip in the Jordon thousands of times.

All you have to offer is a bunch of complicated arguments based on premises that I debunked a long time ago. All you have is a bunch of circular reasoning. Believe me, you are offering nothing essentially new here.

There are many Bible scholars of highest intelligence who do believe in Jesus Christ, and believe He is God in the flesh, and our creator and redeemer, so any claims of intelligence and scholarship when presenting an argument against Christianity are pretty much irrelevant. Also, it is my opinion that since this is a Seventh-day Adventist message board, and SDAs are within the Christian community, all of our discussion should be within the bounds of Christian thought. Arguments against Christianity should not be posted.

I think strength in ones beliefs comes best at the extreme risk of having them tested and questioned most severely. Unless one truly thinks deeply about and wrestles their doubts, fears and questions to the ground, they have avoided honestly knowing what they believe. That does not necessarily mean finding all the answers... but that is where faith begins.

So as moderator of this forum I will allow it.

And I expect and appreciate the respectful and thoughtful dialog even in the face of challenging and strongly heartfelt disagreement. While broad tolerance is the hallmark of this latitudinarian philosophy, I do not tolerate ad hominem attacks here and will remove them without warning or further explanation.

To anyone who finds this frank and open discussion, or any other on the Original Thoughts forum too troubling, it would be best to not read and participate here. Just skip it. There are still many other options and opportunities available around here.

Tom

I would go to a church that actually keeps the 9th commandment.

Thanks cardw, that's a little more clarifying.Your claim of gifted reading skills at age 9 is nothing compared to mine. I am long past college age and have the reading skills of a 9 year old so the descrepencies between my age and my reading level are much greater than yours!! That said,I have another question for you that would help me in our discussion so I don't jump to any premature conclusions. Do you believe that the human race (that would include you and me-----well, me anyway,I may be a little premature)was created miraculously by a Being of greater intelligence and power or did the human race (not so miraculously) create a Being of greater intelligence and power? How do you think all this "God" stuff began?