[quote=abelisle]I didn't read this as a specious argument that SDA's can use to condone their homosexuality if that's their leaning but rather an argument for a more Biblical approach to what it really means to be a Christian in our world - a return to the powerful messages of the OT prophets to tend to the needs of the impoverished rather than rant against gay marriage, stem cell research and all other sundry sorts of things of lesser importance.

I firmly believe that the most important question we will have to answer on Judgment Day will be, "What have you done to help the poor and needy?"

Why the emphasis on the either/or Alex? As has been pointed out,conservative Christians HAVE been doing these things for decades before there was a gay rights movement or the legalized killing of the unborn or a host of other "lesser" moral evils. The Bible lays on it's followers no moral mandate to eliminate all human suffering. We are instructed to do what we can, not devote 100% of our resources to feeding the world's hungry. In fact, our most immediate obligation is to care for the poor and unfortunate in our own "household of faith".And lest we forget,the apostle Paul reminds us that " knowing the righteous judgment of God,that those who practice such things(of "lesser importance")are deserving of death..." We've got people to save as well as feed.

no one is denying that those cities were also destroyed because of sexual immorality. the fact that they, the whole city, tried to rape the angels shows that. that was how perverse they had become.

Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

if it was homosexuality we have a problem because there were women in this crowd also. you are reading homosexuality into these statements. it is not there. ellen white never mentions homosexuality, nor singles it out.

she appears to have seen all sexuality immorality as the same. so should we.

John,

I think your question is deserving of a separate thread in and of itself. I myself am very careful in separating "being a homosexual" from "practicing homosexual acts". I also have issues with how we quickly condemn homosexual couples who live in a committed monogamous relationship but have less to say about heterosexual relationships that have a multitude of issues.

Let me ask you a question(s). Is homosexuality "nature" or "nurture?" And if it is "nature" how stridently do we expect them to change, for them, their normal sexual tendencies? Will only non-practicing homosexuals be saved?

Alex

there are people who will be convicted of what sin is and those who will not. and if they choose not to be convicted we cannot shove it down them harder and harder.

it is the Holy Spirits job to convict of sin. it is not our job to help Him no matter how well-meaning we might be.

my apologies for helping to derail this topic.

yes, i agree completely.

i wonder how many "sinners" will be in heaven who meet these requirements:

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit uses Christians, particularly Seventh-day Adventists, in these last days, to help convict the world of sin through the preaching and teaching of the Word?

But if homosexuals hear the arguments from Christians that the practice of homosexuality is not a sin, and that they can be saved while practicing it, it certainly makes it easy for them to feel that they don't need to stop those sins.

In this thread, I'm not addressing the question of how to communicate the message to gay people. But of course it is not something that should be "shoved down them" at all. That would NEVER do. But that's an entirely different topic altogether. The first thing, though, is to settle the question whether the practice of homosexuality is sinful or not.

It certainly would if it was going to be a debate or a discussion of whether homosexuality is condemned by the Bible or not. But I am interested in knowing if the argument is being made on this thread that the practice of homosexuality was not even included among the sins that brought down the wrath of God on Sodom.



I understand that. I have been gay all my life and practiced it most of my life since I was in my late teens until about 4 years ago. I still consider myself gay, although I no longer practice.



Both relationships are sinful from the biblical viewpoint. Neither one is more OK than another. But whether a gay lives in a monogamous relationship or not is irrelevent as far as its sinfulness is concerned. It's "better" than have multiple sexual relationships, of course, because it's less dangerous in terms of STDs, etc., but being monogamous doesn't make it less sinful. In fact, being monogamous can be more spiritually harmful because the individual can become convinced that he/she is doing what's right and that God is blessing them and their relationship.



It depends a lot on the person, but it is probably a combination of both, athough with some gays, it is no doubt mostly nature. I believe I was "born gay." I don't remember any time when I wasn't attracted to other males. Some male's brains are feminized in the womb during early development by being exposed to female hormone and some female brains are exposed to too much male hormone. It has been proved that this does happen, but this does not account for all or even for most gays.



Yes, I myself am a non-practicing homosexual and I expect to be saved-- but not IN my sins, but rather FROM my sins. I believe with all my heart and mind what Ellen White has written-- that the power of Christ is able to save us even from hereditary weakness and tendancies.

Thank you for your thoughtfelt response. I want to say that I have a lot of respect for you in admitting that you are a homosexual, especially on a religious forum.

I agree with just about everything you've said except for how God views those committed monogamous couples. Thank God, that he's the one who's judging them.

It seems that sex is at the root of this issue not a misdirected love? If there was never any sex involved in homosexual relationships, would the love for another of the same sex be what is sinful? There is even a Biblical example of same-sex love with David and Jonathan.So, I ask again is it the "sex" that's a sin and/or the "love"?

Or is it that a same-sex, no-sexual activities relationship is sinful because it hinders the procreation mandate given to us by God? The Bible clearly condemns homosexual relationships and uses language that concentrates on the sexual aspect but does the Bible ever tell us what the underlying reason(s) are?

Alex

I'm familiar with this idea. It is found in many homosexual publications.

But there's no evidence for this except that the Bible says David and Jonathan loved each other. There's no evidence that it's talking about sexual love.

What's your best case for saying it's a biblical example of same-sex love?

Let's assume, though, for the sake of discussion, that David and Jonathan had sex together. Would that show that it is not sinful? Of course it wouldn't. Even if John the Baptist & Saint Paul had sex together, it wouldn't make it right. All it would prove it that they were sinful humans in need of a Savior, which, of course, we're well aware of already.