NOTE:Please keep this thread here.

Let's try to minimize our political opinions that relate to this thread, otherwise it will disappear into the bowels of political chaos where socialism and Democrats abound!

As a retired teacher, I don't like what I'm seeing in our educational system, both secular and religious. The only exceptions are the elite prep schools that are still holding on to education as it should be taught.(what I mean by this is that they aren't under any legal constraints re: testing etc.) But that figures since money walks and everything else talks.

Check out these two very informative links:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/education/03ravitch.html?ref=todayspaper

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/science/earth/04climate.html?ref=todayspaper

Any suggestions on how to turn this around? Is our Adventist educational system doing things better? How about home schooling? If you think we should maintain testing, what should these tests look like? National exams like some countries have? Significantly raise teachers' salaries?

And lastly but probably most importantly, how do we get our country and our parents to value education more seriously?

Well Alex I don't want to get this to be political either, but to answer your question without mentioning the government will be hard. So first let me say that the previous and present administration are both wanting this! I'm not sure that the way either one has been going about it will help! Now for the other thing, I think until the parents of each child think that education is the most important thing for there children nothing will get better. When we went to school our parents always backed the teachers, today the teachers can't do anything without the parents permission. The kids come home and complain that there's to much this to much of that, not enough of whatever. I not saying that the educational system is always right but its definitely not going to work correctly if the parents are not 100% behind it.

pk

I was under the impression that since our Adventist colleges accept Federal grants we are now required by law to do what the law mandates, i.e. teach evolutionary concepts. Is this correct?



I get really disgusted with how teachers are treated. Where are the parents????? Nobody can make a child study at home, and if the teachers are not backed up by the parents, what are the teachers supposed to do?

Firing teachers and principals is NOT the answer!!! IMHO

I feel this is the real issue! Historicly we have not seen education for the general populace as needful, ie, founding fathers. Other than a K-12, you need money and most often, lots of it for continueing education. We are a young country and think of goals in the short term.
When money gets tight at federal or local level, education funding is one of the first areas that seem to be cut.

Turn this around? How? Long term goals at both the federal and local levels with parents needing a better understanding of its value, which will continue when the the children have left the educational behind. Parents will vote down school levy's when their children are gone saying 'it's not my responsibility any more'. The future should be a continuing concern not short term. I also believe free education should be available up through 4 yrs of college. This country can afford it, we need to invest in America's future first!

And who is going to pay for the teachers' salaries?

I routinely vote down public school levies when I know for a fact that students in the local high school have urinated on the inside walls of the schools, broken school property, and make nuisances of themselves in the streets.

No need for more taxes, simply make it higher in the budget before our dispensing of funds (aid, etc) to other countries!

I could agree with that. Pay our own people before shelling out funds to other countries! Yep! I'd vote for that one!!!

OK, politics without rancor: in both the US and Australia we've had shifts from centre-right to centre-left governments in the past couple of years, and in both countries the 'test and punish' regimes in education have continued unabated. So it seems to be a more general trend rather than any particular ideology.

To me, there are two broad classes of issues - those related to home and those related to government policy. There are micro issues in particular schools and classrooms and so on, but it's the broad ones that make the real difference (and that Alex was pointing to). And, IMO, part of the problem is that we try to use actions in one domain to address problems arising in the other...

So, on the family front: when I was at school 30 years ago, there might have been one or two kids in my class with divorced parents. Now, in my kids' classes, there might be one or two whose parents are together. That can't fail to have a huge influence on the security of kids, and on how much emotional energy they have available to invest in schooling. Add that to more TV and less reading (and more TVs - one in each bedroom instead of the family gathered around one), and there's a recipe in itself for kids who struggle with literacy. And so on... When I was growing up many kids had Mums who stayed home at least a lot of the time, now almost none do. Doesn't matter whether it's Mum or Dad, but kids who are raised by teachers and day care workers and rarely see their parents are (generally) kids who are less well prepared for life. Add to that society's general shift to just giving up on parents and expecting schools to instill manners and respect as well as knowledge...

So that's one domain of problems - and yet I would also say that even with that, it's a tiny minority of students who are really antisocial, and there are 'moral panics' about the decay of today's youth that are not really reflected in the stats on crime, drugs, pregnancy or other measures of actual (rather than perceived) delinquency. Stereotyping and a rose-coloured view of the past need to be counterbalanced by the realisation that every generation since at least Socrates' time has mourned the corruption of the young...

Then there's the governmental belief in 'making a pig heavier by weighing it' - the touchingly child-like belief that if you measure yourself every day it will help you grow. More testing is not more teaching, and we know that pencil-and-paper tests that are easy and feasible to mark on a large scale tell us about only a very narrow subset of the broad range of outcomes we want from schooling. Yet more testing is proposed as the cure for every educational ill.

That would be bad enough if tests were used diagnostically, to find struggling systems and students and then devote the resources to improving them and offering better education to those students. But they're not, they're used punitively. Find schools that struggle (usually because their students are poor and come from disadvantaged backgrounds) and then defund them even further.

All I can hope for is a change of tide and approach... but I can't see any leadership in either country that's heading in that direction. Australia has just developed a new national curriculum for the first time, and I'm very hopeful about the directions it heralds. We'll be working toward a new national assessment program too, and the noises they're making are encouraging. I guess we'll see, and I always like to be optimistic. I hope there'll be some similar vision and leadership in the US around these issues.

(in case I wasn't clear enough, my problem is not with testing per se but with the uses to which test results are put)

The results are in! See who gets the stimulus money:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...MIDDLTopStories

Alex

As goes society, so goes society's educational system. Schooling was successful when education was seen as a gift from our Creator, instead of an entitlement of the masses regardless of what our U.S. constitution might be saying.



In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.

When men are willing to sacrifice what they own instead of making sure others are willing to give them what is owed them, only then will there be equal opportunity to reap the benefits of fair and just educational opportunities.
This will only take place for all when all see themselves as indebted to all others for their wellbeing.

And thus it will not come to pass until Jesus is received as
Lord of all.

Even so, Come, Lord Jesus!

who gets what:

Why in the world is Massachusetts getting stimulus money for education? They're at the top in both Math and Reading. And Colorado is the only state west of the Mississippi to get any money, and their scores are also above average...

I like that quote.

Thanks Pam

I think MA is getting rewarded for putting up those high reading and math scores?

Alex

I can only speak for us in Australia but it has become out of reach financially for the average family - most send their kids to public schools because they cant afford it.

Yeah, Pam and Alex, that's exactly the problem: the funding is given to those already doing well, not to those who need it to help them do better...

So everybody jealous I guess? :)
hahahahaha

pk

You're writing as one who lives in Massachusetts, home of the rich and famous, I presume?

Come on Pam I'm only joking. But you knew that, right? :)
Yes I do live in Mass, for the time being. And it definitely is not the home of the rich or famous, that would be California, or Hollywood to be more exact.

pk

I thought the Kennedy's were from Massachusetts. No?

Yes they are.

pk

Answer to thread title

Following the underlined is definitely more precise as I'm sure you are aware from recent past news of the state of California's economic woes. And some even believe California's woes are a result of just desserts for putting up with Hollywood and other undesirable venues permitted in the state.
Blessings!

Could be, could be.

Alex, I'm assuming that your use of the word "our" is in reference to public education in the United States.Yes?

Especially when it's borrowed money!!!!

I believe statistics show the United States uses 25% of the worlds accessible wealth while having only 5% (or there abouts)
of the worlds population. IMO we don't really need any further excuses with which to justify holding on to what we have.

Then he told them a story: “A rich man had a fertile farm that produced fine crops. He said to himself, ‘What should I do? I don’t have room for all my crops.’ Then he said, ‘I know! I’ll tear down my barns and build bigger ones. Then I’ll have room enough to store all my wheat and other goods. And I’ll sit back and say to myself, “My friend, you have enough stored away for years to come. Now take it easy! Eat, drink, and be merry!”’
“But God said to him, ‘You fool! You will die this very night. Then who will get everything you worked for?’
Luke 12:16-20 NLT
Blessings!

Yes

It's never right to borrow more money than you can ever hope to actually repay, not even for a benevolent purpose. And that is what our government has done, and continues to do. They need to get the national budget under control. But I'd say that pork barrel spending is probably more to blame than aid to other countries. Pork barrel should be called "bribery" because that is what it really is, an attempt to buy votes or campaign contributions, in order to further enrich those who already have more than enough.

Gotcha, thanks.

Plenty of good places to cut before foreign aid: military would be my vote but no doubt not others'. Let's not start with (further) cuts to public education, though...

I think a quick reference back to the Declaration of Independence should give us a clue as to the direction our educational system has been taking for the past few decades. The DoI states that God created man with certain unalienable rights. Today's government states that the existence of God cannot be acknowledged in public education. It further claims that public education is a right guaranteed by the government. The government then requires public education which mandates the teaching that God did NOT create man, effectively negating the foundation upon which the country's government was founded.And we wonder where our educational system is headed? "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge." "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

I agree with your thoughts GLG, that this pork garbage needs to be gotten rid of. When they vote on something, whatever it might be, they should have to vote on just that. I believe that Clinton signed a bill that got rid of that, but Bush got rid of it when he came into office?

pk

In the succinct statement of somebody wiser than I, yes!!! OTOH since we are the government, what does that tell you? Could it be we resemble the proverbial dog chasing his own tail?

Here's a must read article from the NYTimes Sunday magazine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html

The focus of the article is something I've been saying for 35 years = without classroom management/discipline skills, one can't teach. BTW, I'm comment #534

Alex

Discipline starts in the home. If children do not learn their values in the home, there is little likelihood that a teacher can spend enough time teaching them in the school setting.

Interestingly enough, a dear friend of mine has been working as a substitue in one of our local school districts. Her observation is that there is a trend toward even less discipline in the early elementary years--a trend where even the words, "no" and "don't" are not allowed. Instead, the teachers are encouraged (by threat of losing their contracts) to only use positive reinforcements such as, "I like it when my friends stick together," or, "It makes me happy when friends keep each other safe," or even, "Friends like to share with their friends." It is not until the fourth grade when these students start to hear school discipline in the form of negativism.

I totally agree Aubrey. EGW says that the first few years are very important for your childs character.

pk

>>Answer to thread title<<

Never one to stand in the way of progress - I usually applaud the newfangled; however, wha's wid dis?—where’s the freakin’ handle? Or, is it one of those you’s gotta

stand there and wave your hands alla over tryin’ to find the optik thingee?

Sheesh!—progress...

Children today have it totally over on teachers, and the children know it.

>>Especially when it's borrowed money!!!!<<

Beaucoup buck$! ...without mentioning the intere$t tandem said monie$$$$$$

Yikes!—sounds unsustainable.