So why is it perfectly normal intelligent people fall for the stupidest conspiracy theories?

I have my theory but it'd get me pilloried here...

"Normal" is just a setting on the washer and dryer. It doesn't exist, sociologically speaking.

Aw come on, I'll support you in public, at least. I haven't see a good pillory for a while either.

STAN

WELL that is a good question... but just being intelligent
does not make people wise and open to the HOLY SPIRIT

dgrimm60

KARL

that is an intersting statement about normal

dgrimm60

In physicolgical terms, there is concidered an acceptable range, or "normal". The ph of blood is between 7.35 to 7.45. The Saturations of Oxygen in the blood is 96% but an acceptable range is anything above 89, hence 90 to 96 is a range of acceptable saturations.

Socialogically speaking, there are acceptable behaviors that are concidered normal. Examples, SDAs concider Sabbath an important day in thier culture. It is normal to invite people to ones home to eat and have social contact. What is not normal, is those behaviors that are outside expected behaviors.

Thoughts?

I'll take a stab at the "conspiracy theory" piece. My take is that since the beginning of time, man has been fascinated with esoteric knowledge, gnostic disciplines, the Oracles, the Eleusinian Mysteries, the secrets of the Phythagoreans, the special telekinetic powers of the Rosicrucians (I have an interesting story about this one!), and finally interpretation of eschatological prophecy.

Isn't it natural for us to want to have "inside" information? That's why I can't reveal all the special contract work I've done for the C.I.A. As we all know "truth is stranger than fiction" and the more the better!

Alex (perfectly sane but definitely abnormal)

As I sometimes say, "Don't mess with my delusions, they're working just fine for me right now."

Specifically, which stupid conspiracy theories are you referring to? Perhaps you aren't informed enough and they aren't stupid at all! Lol!

I will pirate that for my facebook.

Yeah, my guess is that they are probably misinformed and don't bother researching things out on their own. Speaking of which, why is it that as a church we still celebrate pagan holidays like Easter and Christmas even though the Bible tells us not to do so?

I'm still wanting to know what conspiracy theories have been deemed "stupid".

911?
Chemtrails?
HAARP?
USA concentration camps?

Hey Pickie Chickie, Nice to see you. How's Frostie?

The Bible talks about Christmas and Easter?!?

Well, I know the KJV mentions Easter (in a positive light), but...

Good work! You forgot a few though. :)

Your question implies that falling for the stupidest conspiracy theories is perfectly normal and intelligent. Therefore, I would like to posit the corollary; You are neither normal nor intelligent if you reject the stupidest conspiracy theories.

The KJV does mention the word "Easter", but it's a mistranslation of Pascha (aka. Passover in English). Most other bible translations (ie. NIV, NKJV, etc..) have corrected this mistranslation.

Christmas and Easter are both pagan holidays that were "Christianized" (by man, not God). The bible clearly tells us to not worship God the same way the pagans do (See Deuteronomy 12:29-31 and Leviticus 18:1-4). The dates, customs and most traditions of those holidays are completely pagan. Even casual research will verify this.

Frostie is GREAT! He turned 21 years old yesterday (along with myself and all my pets, a very convenient DOB assigned to all by me) and to celebrate, we experienced a 2.8 magnitude earthquake with the epicenter located 3 miles from us! It felt like an elephant headbutted my mobile home! There was a very strange, groaning sound, one huge JOLT which sent Corkie, my miniature macaw, flying off her cage and caused Frostie to screech in terror! (Frostie's Shake Your Tail Feather video is now only about 50,000 views away from hitting 2 MILLION!) Thanks for asking!

Have we heard from Mr. Anonymous aka Ernie Bennett lately?

By all means please copy and paste my list into a reply and add your own.

What baffles me is why people can think three huge steel/concrete structures could all come down at free fall rate (13 seconds)due to the heat of a fire supposedly propelled by jet fuel.

I think that's what this thread is talking about.

Let me tell you about the conspiracy thing! Back in 1978 I was introduced to the Todd tapes. It made such an impact at Andrews in the fall of 1978 that a debate was arranged between his honor Roland Hegsted and the educational director Dr George Akers and his side-kick Carolyn Bisel. The subject: Is Todd for real?! How should the endtime Adventist respond? Most Adventists are preterist put the 2nd Coming way in the past ie. 1844 & the good old days of the pioneers; or way in the future; but never in the present: "It is really not that bad."

Anyway Roland -the- man- with the plan on the inside tip, made his opening statement: "If I could go to each of you and slap your wrist for wasting a good Sabbath afternoon to hear this bunkum, I would, but here we are!!" (recollection)

PMC was packed as I recall. There was a sense of urgency and expectancy. If there was any sense of preparation, Hegsted rammed his spike into our balloons!!

Akers had his turn. "We don't need Todd to tell us that something nefarious and evil is working within our country from the very embed of our history. In the 1700's Robison's book "Proofs of a Conspiracy" outlined clearly that EVIL was already at work on the foudations of America and ultimately the world!"

I can say that when I left there notwithstanding the spike of Hegsted, I accepted the reality that indeed there was a conspiracy to destroy our freedoms and enter us into the Kingdom of Satan. Anyone that has not availed themselves a careful examination of the events of 911 etc and consider other than the mainstream media tripe is not only the stupidest but the most foolish ignoramus alive! They have become an accomplice to this evil!!!

Explaining The Illuminati - John Todd


"John Todd, a former member of the illuminati, warned us against their plans for world domination before he was framed and effectively discredit by the illuminati. The words that he left on his audio tapes are still coming to pass which puts lots of credibility on his claim that he was an insider. This audio tape speaks about the evil plans of the illuminati for world control. This is just another piece of the puzzle that explains what’s going on today’s world."

The Witchcraft of Rock and Roll - John Todd

EGW talked about the conspiracies of the Holy See with various governments. Those that are receptive to the truth see the conspiracies the gov't has with the AMA, FDA, etc. Was JFK killed by Oswald, or was he a patsy for a bigger thing? Lincoln was killed by the catholic church, yet who knows about that? Their plans were to kill VP Johnson, the Secretary of State, and the Treasurer at the same time, thereby crippling our government. Was 911 an inside job? I don't know. Are the presidents what they appear to be? Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXo5ea2hRFE&fmt=18

Uh... are you serious?

Why is it that if the mainstream media is extolling the virtues of vegetarianism or Christianity we sing their praises, but if they tells us facts about 9/11, "NOOO!! EVIL!"

Where do you do you do your "careful examination"? Bad novels?

They had audio tapes in 18th-century Bavaria? Wow. Talk about a conspiracy!

LOOSE CHANGE
This documentary proves 911 was an inside job, that the three, yes three, World Trade Center buildings came down WITH assistance from carefully distributed explosives planted in advance. If you do NOT believe this is a fact, then you MUST watch this! You will be STUNNED!

Excuse me. I suggest you watch the video entitled "Loose Change" I posted below rather than relying on a few seconds of video clips you saw played over and over and over and over and over again on TV!

Do you really think three buildings can come down in 13 seconds, at free fall rate? Think again. Watch the video below.

Our government is controlled by the people behind 911 and those people also control what is shown on the media.

Do you know that there is footage of a broadcaster speaking about the third building coming down BEFORE it fell?

Do you know it was in the background behind her? Do you know these reporters were given a script as to what to say but got it too soon and announced on TV the third building had collapsed before it actually had?

September 11 NY was orchestrated by the U. S. government.
This is no "theory" but a true conspiracy amongst others in time past as records show.

It's the 'broken record' effect to make one conditioned to believe by means of repetition. Hence the controlled media's spin of fact.

Jesus' crucifixion was also a "conspiracy". Nothing has changed, those in power will always 'conspire' to meet their means.

Loose Change is... not the most intelligent production out there.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/introduction.html
http://emptv.com/research/loose-change

I wish to direct everyone to the original question: how can otherwise intelligent and normal people believe this stuff?

I'm guessing they're bored and/or imbalanced. It probably stems from innate suspicion of everything and everyone.

A brief perusal of what you posted above reveals your (or anyone's) inability to define "normal."

Can't be done satisfactorily. Different people have different behavioral expectations.

That which is usual and customary to one group of people may be unusual to others and, therefore, outside their "feel" for "normal."

How would you like it if Jeffrey Dahmer were given the responsibility of defining "normal" for the rest of us?

Usual and customary can, in fact, be abnormal as can be evidenced by the average food ingestion here in the south.

How can people believe "this stuff"?

What is "this stuff"?

You haven't even given us any solid examples, nor has the person who started this thread, of what exactly you are referring to!

What stuff?

To many, conspiracy theories are just a realistic cynicism regarding human nature. Not all people in this world are honest, hard working and forthcoming about their intentions. Certainly we can all agree on this. So how did the term “conspiracy theory” get grouped in with fiction, fantasy and folklore? Maybe that, in itself, is a conspiracy. Just kidding. Or am I?

Skeptics are important in achieving an objective view of reality. Skepticism is not the same as reinforcing the official storyline. In fact, a conspiracy theory can be argued as a necessary alternative to the official or “mainstream” story of events. Conspiracy theory can help to balance the way the party in power rewrites history to fit its plans and expectations.

If there is only one story possible, then going with the mainstream is sensible. If there is more than one story possible - and there almost always is - skepticism is a useful tool in ferreting out truth from the plethora of propaganda.

Galileo was a skeptic to the mainstream explanation. So was Luther.

And never forget that Jesus was the Victim of conspiracy.

Have you watched Loose Change?

And, do you agree that 911 was an inside job or do you think the towers magically collapsed in 13 seconds because the fire melted the steel?

If you have watched it and don't agree that credible information can be learned about 911, what documentary do you suggest we all watch?

Please post the video!

No. I already read all the exposés, so I don't want to waste my time on something I know is inaccurate.

I don't believe either of those things. Towers don't magically collapse; that's absurd. They collapsed because the steel was weakened by the impact of a jet plane flying into it.

I implore you to watch Loose Change.

But... it's inaccurate. Actually, the producer said it was inaccurate.
http://www.oilempire.us/loose-change.html

That web site was not published by the producer of the documentary "Loose Change".

Do yourself a favor and watch Loose Change then make your own decision after you watch it. It's not like you're going to end up possessed by demons!

Have an open mind! Don't base your opinion on what someone is saying on a website! Watch the actual video clips of the towers coming down that were obtained from witnesses which haven't been shown on TV!

I can't make you watch it but I will tell you that every single person who had the same opinion as you, who I asked to view Loose Change, that the towers fell because the steel weakened due to the jet fuel has CHANGED THEIR MIND without exception.

Also, how do you explain the third word trade center building, NUMBER SEVEN, collapsing when it did NOT get hit by a jet nor was there jet fuel burning inside it!

Um... hello? Why don't you have an open mind and not base your opinion on what someone is saying in a documentary? Read actual scientific facts explained by experts that the proponents of the 9/11-conspiracy won't tell you!

I guess you didn't refer the people who watched Loose Change and then debunked it.

WTC 7 fell because it was on fire. Have you ever heard of other buildings collapsing because they were on fire?

1 Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
2 Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
3.Extremely rapid onset of destruction
4.Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
5.Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph
6.Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
7.Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
8.1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
9.Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
10.Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
11.Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
12.Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
13.Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
14.No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

Wow, the government did pretty shoddy work. You'd think they would have had a better plan.

Speak of which, why haven't they killed you yet for exposing them? I'm sure you have someone tracking your online activities.

Is there an IGNORE feature? If you refuse to watch the documentary, that is your choice.

I don't think your attitude is suitable and I don't appreciate it one bit.

Yes, not reading my posts if they are upsetting you. Your posts are apparently upsetting me, since I can't keep myself from replying to them. And I'm sorry if I offended you, but ignoring me won't get the government off your back for exposing their dastardly ways.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but hating America is sort of offensive to some people. I'm sorry that you believe such things, but there's really nothing more I can do.

You are so sarcastic it's pathetic.

You accuse me of hating America?

You are a piece of work. I haven't posted here in a long time and you have totally ruined my experience here and I will no longer be participating in this forum.

You are a real jerk.

I'm sorry.

I'm not aware of any Pagans worshipping on Christmas nowadays. I think we as Christians pretty much own Dec. 25th now. But I could be wrong and if I am ... for certain others will correct me. :)

>>The KJV does mention the word "Easter", but it's a mistranslation of Pascha (aka. Passover in English). Most other bible translations (ie. NIV, NKJV, etc..) have corrected this mistranslation.<<

“Pascha” notwithstanding, isn’t there at least a bit of ambiguity to the texts of Acts 12: 3,4?—and that “Easter” is really the correct translation?

Acts 12:3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put [him] in prison, and delivered [him] to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Nu 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month [is] the passover of the LORD.
Nu 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

>>Christmas and Easter are both pagan holidays that were "Christianized" (by man, not God).<<

But didn’t Gd tell us that the Sun, Moon, and stars were given to us for signs and seasons?—without proscription? Are signs and seasons made void simply because “pagans” also utilize those signs and seasons?

>>The bible clearly tells us to not worship God the same way the pagans do (See Deuteronomy 12:29-31 and Leviticus 18:1-4).<<

Wasn’t the injunction against becoming ‘ensnared’ by the “doings of the land of Canaan”?—and not to the observation of “signs and seasons”?

SivartM I most say that you have made some really good points in all your posts. And definitely agree with you.
And to no one in particular: As far as the buildings collapsing in 13 seconds! When they finally collapsed it took 13 seconds, because of all the weight, but if you watched most of the day it took hours before the buildings actually did collapse! And the first building struck didn't collapse until after the second one collapsed first.

pk

Stan look what you started!! LOL

pk

Pickie Chickie, if you can't handle people persisting in disagreeing with you, and are going to call somebody a jerk simply because he argues with you, then this forum isn't the place for you anyway.

It's probably because it's been so long since we had honest leaders who would tell the whole truth to those they are supposed to be leading.

There is truly a conspiracy going on in this world: Satan is scheming to deceive humans.

By bombarding the population with a constant stream of "stupid" conspiracies, the activists get distracted chasing foolish notions and the general population learns to ignore both the "stupid" conspiracies and the authentic conspiracies too.

And I suppose you think the point where he called me an America hater is a good point too?

Pickie Chickie, I don't think you noticed, but I sent you a PM. Please read it. :)

I noticed alright but I'm not talking to you until you watch Loose Change.

On Sabbath?

Sorry, but in the PM you won't read I said I wouldn't argue with you about this anymore.

Has anyone adressed the issue of what will transpire if all of these various conspiracies come to fruition?

After watching an Alex Jones video on global government that a friend gave me, I never found out what the advantage is to totally destroy the global economies of the key nations in the world?

Even for those fortunate members of the Illuminati, Council of 13, 33rd Order of Freemasons et al, where would they live and under what conditions? To create total anarchy benefits no one. It's like trying to live in the lap of luxury in a post-nuclear apocalyptic environment.

Or - and this makes more sense to me, Satan is the "real" leader of these shadow organizations and at the point of total collapse, we have the 2nd Coming? But then I ask myself, why would Satan want to hasten his own demise? A powerfully psychotic belief in his own invincibility?

Alex (BTW, Homeland Security is hiring pastors)

Alex, Satan wants to take as many with him as he can, so he keeps people preoccupied with conspiracy theories so they neglect the most essential matters. Personally, I do not care what any conspirators do. The Bible tells us that there is going to be a time of trouble before Jesus comes. But it also tells us that it is God who will get us through it. The details really don't matter. The only thing that really does matter is that we commit our lives fully to God, and do the work He calls us to do. All that conspiracy stuff, is just a distraction, even if should happen to be true.

It is not a conspiracy theory when the truth is out in the open. Care to ask me how and why I was told about four months before 911 what was going to happen and warned about it from a contact I have with the "Continental International Airways"? The stupid people are the ones that refuse to use their own brains to figure things out for themselves. They all tend to believe in Romans 13 and therefore can't believe the rulers of the world would ever lie to them about anything.

back to my original comment..

Yes. I have to agree with GLG. For some it is so difficult to see their pet ideas or views disagreed with. They get defensive and take it personal. I suppose it's natural. But SivartM is one of our most well behaved members here. I think it has something to do with his age. But don't quote me on that. All I know is he has learned much and I glean much from him in both his manner and content.

Thanks, Woody, but I did go too far in this conversation. Which is why I am not going to say anything to Dr. Rich... even though I really really want to... *bites tongue*

I think we could look at the beginning of the SDA church as coming from a bunch of people who fell for the idea that Jesus would come in 1844.

What is the attraction of having a prophet that has special knowledge?

The Bible seems to be full of people who had inside knowledge.

I think all of this comes from the desire to find meaning in life and avoid despair, angst, absurdity, alienation, and boredom.

It's incredible how adaptable the human imagination is. Look at our fascination with stories and movies. All of these reward those who can suspend disbelief.

So belief can provide even more opportunities to find meaning.

I agree.

SivartM is a 'keeper'

Yes. Just hope he doesn't learn any bad habits from the rest of us. :)

Ya sivartM, I'm biting mine too. :)

Here's just a few quotes from non-Christians:

"I'm not so much celebrating Christmas as acknowledging Yule – the old Germanic and Norse mid-winter festival supplanted over a millennium ago by early Christian missionaries and to which we owe most of the seasonal fun, including the Christmas tree, the lights, holly, mistletoe and the ham."
- Ancient Yule festivals lie behind much of our British Christmas, by Ian Vince, 15 Dec 2008, Telegraph.co.uk
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/377607...-Christmas.html)

"Yule, the winter solstice, is a festival of peace and a celebration of waxing solar light. I honor the new sun child by burning a[n] oaken yule log in a sacred fire. I honor the great goddess in her many great mother aspects, and the father god as Santa in his old sky god, father time, and holly king forms. I decorate my home with lights and with holly, ivy, mistletoe, evergreens and other herbs sacred to this season. I ring in the new solar year with bells."
- Wiccan high priestess Selena Fox, (http://www.circlesanctuary.org)


"Yule has the longest night and the shortest day of the year. It is the time when the Goddess gives birth to a son, the God. Witches and Wiccans celebrate the Festival of the God’s Rebirth. It is a time to honor the Holly King. Accomplishes of the past, love, togetherness, and love are also celebrated. These things are celebrated by burning the Yule Log in a bonfire. Other Names: Winter Solstice, Christmas, Alban Arthan, Finn’s Day, Festival of Sol, Yuletide, Great Day of the Cauldron, and the Festival of Growth."
- A Beginner's Guide To The 8 Wiccan Holidays, by Silver Wolf, Oct. 28th, 2007 (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usor&c=holidays&id=11776)

"However, the enduring imagery of the festival is forever pagan, from the top of the Christmas tree to the presents at its base, the Druids' mistletoe and the Romans' holly over the fireplace, with a Yule log burning in the grate."
- Seasons of the Witch: The Winter Sabbat , by L.P. Ruickbie, p. 7

“But of course, now it’s time for the big one – Yule. You know, celebrating with Yule logs, and holly, and mistletoe (not to mention the stolen kisses!) . Singing those old Yule time carols. Putting up the evergreen Yule tree and decorating it. Drinking a lot of mead - or these days, spiced cider or spiked eggnog. Giving presents. Lots of presents. The Sun [pause] of God being born with the New Year. Gathering together and celebrating with family and friends…did I mention drinking a lot? Yule’s a GREAT Pagan holiday! Yes, my friends, the Puritans were right – Yule (by any other name smelling as sweet) is definitely NOT a Christian holiday.”
- We Want them Back! (A Pagan View of the Holidays), by Bluehawk, (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usga&c=holidays&id=10378)


If you want more info, visit my website: http://www.ChristmasTruth.info/

I think the Christians outnumber the pagans in saying it IS a Christian holiday.

"Pascha" means Passover, aka. the time when Jesus died (14th of Nisan on the Hebrew calendar). Easter has nothing to do with Jesus' death. It's celebrated at a different time, with traditions that are completely pagan. Some years Passover and Easter are around the same dates (like this year), however, other years they can be an entire month apart.

Yeah, God gave us the sun, the moon and the stars as signs and seasons (seasons comes from the Hebrew word Mow'ed, which means "Appointed Times"). So, you are right, we are to use them to determine when these "Appointed Times" are. However, we should use the Bible to determine these times, not man-made rules nor the use of equinoxes or solstices like the pagans use. Jesus, the disciples and the early church never celebrated Easter. They did, however, celebrate Passover. It wasn't until many years later that they changed Passover to Easter, and of course, the Sabbath to Sunday as well. See quotes below.



“The earliest Christians celebrated the Lord's Passover at the same time as the Jews, during the night of the first full moon of the first month of spring (Nisan 14-15). By the middle of the 2nd century, most churches had transferred this celebration to the Sunday after the Jewish feast. But certain churches of Asia Minor clung to the older custom, for which they were denounced as ‘judaizing'. The first ecumenical Council of Nicaea in 325 decreed that all churches should observe the feast together on a Sunday”
- The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th edition, Macropaedia, Vol. 4, pp. 604-605, "Church Year".

“There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”
- Encyclopedia Britannica, volume VIII, p.859.

“The actual introduction of Easter-Sunday appears to have occurred earlier in Palestine after Emperor Hadrian ruthlessly crushed the Barkokeba revolt (A.D. 132-135)... The fact that the Passover controversy arose when Emperor Hadrian adopted new repressive measures against Jewish religious practices suggests that such measures influenced the new Gentile hierarchy to change the date of Passover from Nisan 14 to the following Sunday (Easter-Sunday) in order to show separation and differentiation from the Jews and the Jewish Christians”
- Samuele Bacchiocchi, God's Festival in Scripture and History, 1995, pp. 101-103

“A whole body of ‘Against the Jews’ literature was produced by leading Fathers who defamed the Jews as a people and emptied their religious beliefs and practices of any historical value. Two major causalities of the anti-Jewish campaign were Sabbath and Passover. The Sabbath was changed to Sunday and Passover was transferred to Easter-Sunday. Scholars usually recognize the anti-Judaic motivation for the repudiation of the Jewish reckoning of Passover and adoption of Easter-Sunday instead. Joachim Jeremias attributes such a development to ‘the inclination to break away from Judaism.’ In a similar vein, J.B. Lightfoot explains that Rome and Alexandria adopted Easter-Sunday to avoid ‘even the semblance of Judaism’”
- Samuele Bacchiocchi, God's Festival in Scripture and History, 1995, pp. 101-103

Thanks, Pickie Chickie for the videos. Maybe our politicians are around just for looks while someone else really controls our govt., kind of like a lamb on the outside, but a dragon on the inside.

Seems like every presidential candidate has big plans to change things, but once elected, things don't really change that much. Maybe the shadow government straightens them all out.

Just because the majority of Christians say it is a Christian Holiday, doesn't make it so. There's absolutely nothing Christian about December 25. It was a pagan holiday hundreds of years before Jesus was even born, and it still is today. It doesn't matter how much the church tries to sugar coat it. The Bible clearly says don't learn the ways the heathen worship their gods and try to worship the true God that way.

“When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way;" - Deuteronomy 12:29-31 (NKJV)

The feasts and holy days of the OT never commemorated anyone's birthday or deathday, but always pointed to the Kingdom of God in the next life where similar holy days and feasts will be observed.

That's like saying that this planet isn't following Christ....It's pagan...And yet, ask many a baptist, mormon, SDA, methodist, anglican, Catholic....they will tell you that we all are Christian...

Christians are in every nation, and in some nations, they have over ran the population of thier culture...Take Korea, for example. In the 70's, that country was 30% Christian...now, they are nearing 50%....France, Germany, Italy....these are more Catholic...which is a Christian religion....South America has Catholics and SDAs to consider....The south pacific islands are more SDAs than other Non-Christian religions/pagan.

A date on a calendar can also be pagan...but Christianity has taken it over and Christianized it according to culture...Sure, pagan symbols may still exist in the culture, but they have been subplanted by the Christ Child....To say that Dec 25 is pagan is to ignore what the Christianity has done to people and to times....Sure, the orgion is pagan, or part of the culture ...but Christianity has brought new meaning to the day.....and added a new meaning to the culture of the day....

Therefore, Dec 25 is a Christian holiday....regardless of the origion of the day...Culture has defined it as Christian...

A friend of mine, Billy Burdick, used to come here from time to time. She wrote an article on the pagan origions of Christmas, and why, she felt, December 25 still belonged to Christ. I tend to agree with her...here is her article in it's entirety.

Oh Come Let Us Adore Him ...

It was 1992 when I wrote and first posted this essay as a "Christmas card" to my net families. I wrote it originally as a response to a debate that raged on SDAnet the first Christmas that I was a part of that group over whether we as Christians, and especially as Seventh-day Adventist Christians, should observe Christmas in celebration of the birth of Christ.

It was indeed encouraging to me when after posting this essay that year, I received a very heart-warming letter in which the writer expressed thanks for the new peace that had come to their home in regard to celebrating Christmas....and how they had, for the first time, been able to reconcile the observance of Christmas with the facts of its pagan associations and its not being the actual day of Christ's birth.

Each Christmas season since then I have sent it again to my net family, as well as making it available year round on this section of our At Issue pages, hoping that those who enter in to the joy of the season may find some new thoughts about the holiday you hold dear...and that those who may have had prohibitions or reservations about celebrating Christmas may be encouraged to look at the day in a more joyful way...and join with us, and with the angels, in singing...

Joy to the world,
The Lord is come....

Reflections on Christmas...

...and solstice and pagans and Jews and Gentiles and times and seasons and angels' songs and Christmas trees--and a baby born in a stable.

On winter Solstice... Could one born in the tropics comprehend the long, dark, winter arctic night? Or even we of temperate zones, in our warm, well lighted rooms--what can we know of the feelings of earlier tribes who watched the sunlit hours grow fewer and fainter each day, until there was solstice and the sun stopped its retreat and began to return. Those who knew the Lord--that it was He who made the sun, and ordered the seasons--these surely celebrated and gave Him thanks, and praised the Lord when they saw the sun returning. When they saw the season turning, surely they worshiped Him.

But not all knew the Lord. Some saw only the things that were made--the sun and the earth that provided their food. And they (some ignorantly, some willfully) turned from worshiping the Lord to worshiping instead those things the Lord had made. We call them pagans. At the turning of the season they called solstice, they celebrated, and gave thanks, and praised and worshiped those things that were but the signs of the turning of the year.

And then came Jesus. And Christians chose the solstice celebration and appropriated it as a celebration of His coming. And some Christians think this was a very bad thing to do--for Solstice had "pagan origins", and Christ was not born at Solstice.

But think with me a little farther. Perhaps it should not be so quickly condemned.

First of all, did Pagans really *originate* the celebrations of Solstice? I tend to agree with C. S. Lewis when he observes that Satan does not "originate" anything. He has no creative power. He only rebels, he perverts, he turns men from worshiping the creator to worshiping the creation. But it is the function of the gospel to turn men's hearts back to worshiping the true God. So why should we think of Solstice as being only a pagan holiday which was "Christianized"? (This term meaning, I suppose, only a thin veneer of respectability which covers a pagan--and therefore evil--heart.) Might we not better think of it as a holiday, a holy day--a day of celebration, praise, and worship which Christianity reclaimed--that is, removed its pagan heart--and redirected its praise and worship back to the true Creator God?

It is true, Christ was not born at winter solstice as men count the turning seasons of the year. Yet Christ was born at winter solstice--in the turning of the history of the world.

When "the light of truth seemed to have departed from among men, when faith had grown dim, and hope had well-nigh ceased to illuminate the future." when "the dark shadow that Satan had cast over the world grew deeper and deeper," when even the "priests who ministered in the temple had lost sight of the significance of the service they performed," when "the deception of sin had reached its height," when all the world, it seemed, lived in an arctic winter darkness...

"When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son". . . "Wonder, O heavens! And be astonished, O earth!" (quotes from Desire of Ages by Ellen White) Then it was that angels brought light and song and celebration to temple shepherds keeping watch...for Christ the Lord was born that day! It was "Christ-mas" day--the first glimmer of the "return of the Son", the beginning of God's "Christ-mass"--"Christ- sacrifice"--that was to culminate at Gethsemane and Calvary and burst forth on the resurrection morning in light more glorious than the noonday summer sun.

The gods of field and forest and star and sun and Roman Empire were shown to be no gods. And the day of praise which they had usurped was given back to God. The day of celebrations for the sun's return was made a day of celebration for the coming of the Sun of Righteousness, the babe in the manger.

Oh, yes, from our vantage point in history, we know that not all men gave their full allegiance to the King of Kings. We know that Christians allowed pagan thoughts to infiltrate the church, causing a period of great darkness even in the church. We know that Christians today are not single minded in their worship. We even know that paganism is arising again, that Christ is being outlawed from public schools and government property while neo-pagan and Gaia (earth) rituals are encouraged. Solstice is once more being celebrated by some. So let's be against pagan elements that have clung to (or grown upon) the holy day called Christmas. Let's be against the secular commercialization of Christmas. But please! Let's not let (or help) these same elements squeeze Christ out of our Christmas!

If the celebration of solstice had not existed, would Christians have started it? We just might have--we who lived in lands of ice and snow and long winter nights--we just might have. Darkness is depressing. We just might have cheered each other with tales of light and song and Bethlehem. I hope we would have. Maybe, in fact, we did. Our present day pagans (and their true leader) would like to take credit for much more than history actually records. Let us not glorify them. Paganism never quite lives up to its own self-portrait.

There's a song that keeps running through my head, "Christmas helps us to remember, to do what other folks hold dear." Not all the spending, or even the over-spending, that goes on at Christmas has to do with "greed" or gratification of "lusts". This is the time of year when we can lay aside our timidities and give to those we love. What if we sacrifice a bit of our selves. What if the merchant is enriched as well as our friend--it's Christmas. God gave Himself to us. It is that thought that helps us step outside ourselves and give a bit extra to each other.

At our house, we have a tree. It is a fir tree. (We can still get real trees where I live--though we can't go out and cut our own as we once did.) It will die. And as it dies it will release its perfume. More than it does in its living, it will bless us in its dying. I see symbolism here that looks beyond the manger to a life of blessing and a death of saving. We have lights on our tree--and an angel on the top--the one my oldest son picked out the Christmas he was five. We will remember--stars and angels and Bethlehem and Christmases past. Our tree trimmings all have history--some we made when our children were little, some were gifts from very dear friends, some are merely decorative. Our traditions bind us as a family--and not just our visible family. We celebrate the birthday of our Elder Brother.

For you who do not see beyond the commercialization or paganization of Christmas, I pray that your eyes may be opened. May you see, and feel, and know, along with those of us who celebrate, the peace and love and joy and hope that is kindled anew with each remembrance of His birth.

For you who sing the songs of Christmas...May your hearts open to his love and peace in a new and joyfully intense way on this Christmas.

God bless,

Bille Burdick
At Issue Editor

Sorry to not care about the Christmas discussion, but, on the original topic, I am wondering if anyone besides me believes that men do, in fact, engage in conspiracies? How is it that people could be so naive as to believe that men conspire?

Do men conspire, behind closed doors, to foist their will upon the public? Do they succeed? What is a coup d'etat? Why would we have such a term if this never happens?

Conspire to do what? That is the question...

...If you think that "they" are out to mind control people.... What fun is that? Every single "James Bond" movie deals with global domination or mind control....And those movies were mindless blow ups but even they could see that the idea of global mind control was simply sadistic stupidity....

Now, if you think that they want to sell more things and get more money in relation to pushing thier product? Yes...but if they do, that is a far far smaller conspiracy than global domination. The documentation of the Tobacco Industry shows that they were out to control thier product....

Personally, I have never met a normal person who actually believed in a real conspiracy.

Signed,
Malachi Martin

P.S. Merry Christmas

And to all a good night.

HO HO HO HE HE HE HA HA HA

would
Col 2-16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

have anything to do with what ever holidays someone wants to celebrate

Well ... I do agree with the not judging the food or drink. So, I guess I could also go along with the festivals and new moons etc. :)

Karl, I'm very disappointed that you, of all people, would fall for that conspiracy nonsense. It's just plain silly!!

Signed,
Osama bin Laden

Flo I appreciated all your posts. Even though I don't necessarily agree with your thoughts. I think Stan had a much better verse that he posted.
For me I think were it not for the Jews we would not have had any holidays. Its because of them that many Christians wanted other days of worship and holidays to celebrate, because they didn't want to be persecuted as the Jews were.

pk

You all are trying to say that there is no such thing as "Conspiracy theories", that our government doesn't conspire secretly behind closed doors?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Wasn't it a government who conspired behind closed doors to KILL JESUS? And who was behind that? Certainly not God but Satan himself! And you all think that Satan isn't working today to cause the deaths of Christians?

Osama bin Laden[a] is the leader of al-Qaeda and is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States embassies, Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. Bin Laden and al-Qaeda are responsible for the October 12, 2000, attack on the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen, which killed 17.

Although bin Laden later appeared on the first publicly released FBI Most Wanted Terrorists list on October 10, 2001, he was listed there for the 1998 embassy attack, and not for his alleged role in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people, because the most wanted lists name fugitives charged with a crime by a prosecutor or under indictment by a grand jury.

Bin Laden was named as an "unindicted co-conspirator" in, for instance, the federal indictment against convicted terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, but has not been formally indicted for his role in the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Osama bin Laden is the subject of a $50 million[17] reward through the State Department's Rewards for Justice program targeting international fugitives, especially terrorists, plus $2 million through a program developed and funded by the Air Line Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.[a][18][19]

Why hasn't Bin Laden been indicted yet if the US government is so sure he was involved? Because there is NO proof!


SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Ten_Most_Wanted_Fugitives

One thing at a time, Neil. First we have to establish that men are capable of conspiring and have, in fact, conspired.

If you will admit that this has happened, we can move on to discuss specific conspiracies. If all you want to do is make fun of people who seem to be a little more knowledgeable about the human tendency to conspire, there is no need to take the discussion any further.

Do you believe in conspiracies, Neil? Do you believe people have, and are likely to, engage in conspiracies?

If not, why do you think we have laws against, say, "conspiracy to defraud?"

Haven't seen one post saying there are no conspiracy theories. Just that people are so willing to jump on any CT. Your taking it way to personal. And lets say that every theory is correct. What do you think can be done to stop one of them?

pk

Karl, I need to go on record as saying that I do NOT believe that people are likely to engage in conspiracies!!
Sincerely yours,
John Wilkes Booth

Yes, doug, I think you've done a fine job of satirizing the beliefs of nobody in this discussion. Thank you for your contribution. :)

Just because some conspiracies exist, that does not mean that everything is a conspiracy. As has been said, most of the popular conspiracy theories are just meant to distract us from Satan's conspiracy. Once you start believing everything the conspiracy "experts" tell you, you can't trust anyone, and you can't listen to any dissenting sources, and you have to convert everyone to your conspiracy theories. It's really not unlike a cult. I don't really see any reason for Christians to freak out because someone told them that the government is trying to kill everyone (for... some reason...).

Ya mean, "Men's hearts failing them for fear?

I'm delighted to concede that point that yes, conspiracies do occur. Once we have that out of the way, we need to look at the actual evidence for any actual conspiracy (and, as a broader point, given the general incompetence of governments on all sorts of fronts, on the plausibility of multi-decade conspirators being competent enough not to be revealed (or, interestingly, incompetent enough to be revealed just a little bit, enough that conspiracy theorists know but no-one else)).

In looking at evidence, we also need to be aware of 'confirmation bias' - the strong human tendency to believe evidence that supports our assumptions and ignore evidence that challenges them.

What evidence do you think would lead Pickie Chickie to believe that 9/11 went down exactly as the mainstream account goes: terrorists flew planes into buildings which then collapsed? Is there *any* evidence that can convince her of that? I don't think so, because part of the scheme is that the conspirators would try to fake very convincing evidence to cover their tracks.

The same is true for all sorts of conspiracy theories, on both the left and the right. Confirming evidence is embraced, disconfirming evidence is discounted.

In answer to Stan's original question, which I took to be focused more specifically on Christian believers, since that's our focus here, I have three answers. They aren't a sequence that form an argument, they're three individual factors.

1. Christians know evil is abroad in the world, they know evil has plans for the world. They assume that evil is cunning (which seems only to be true sometimes) and likes to work in hidden ways, so the notion that evil men are conspiring behind closed doors to do evil is inherently believable to Christians.

2. For SDAs specifically, our traditional prophetic framework very strongly lends itself to conspiracy theory, with the Papacy viewed as one of these malevolent networks, and notions about world government (which are completely implausible given Daniel 2, but there ya go) and apostate protestantism and America's role in prophecy. It pretty much sets us up for Jesuits and Masons and Rosicrucians, oh my!

3. And here's the pilloriable one: Creationism requires those who believe in it to deny large parts of science, and seems to cause them to believe that science itself is an evil conspiracy to destroy religious faith. Once you're there, the scientific evidence that debunks a conspiracy theory is easy to dispose of. You've flexed your 'not believing in the evidence from the world around you' muscles enough that it becomes easy to accept anything and believe anything, no matter what the evidence says.

Have fun with it.

I tend to agree with your first 2 points only it seems that the Christian's knowledge of evil and SDA prophetic insight, both based in Scripture, should be a strong hedge AGAINST a conspiracy mindset.As for #3, the nature of the question can just as easily lead "science" to believe in a religious conspiracy to reject their "evidence"(where have I heard that before?).And don't worry about Jesuits.We've already identified Woody! Strange. Real conspiracies seem to not stay secret for very long.And Stan was referring to normal intelligent people, does that exclude non-Christians?

I think confirmation bias applies to everyone. And existing prejudices of whatever kind prepare the ground. Catholics, Jews, bankers, right-wingers, left-wingers, Muslims... whoever you fear you'll be all too willing to believe they're conspiring.

And yep, scientists are susceptible to confirmation bias too. But science has *methods* for testing ideas, and when science is done properly it will correct these biases. That's kind of what it's *for*.

Sivart, you have generally done a pretty good job of staying out of these kinds of over-generalizations. The question is whether conspiracy theories should be examined. Your taking it to the wall like you did above, doesn't come right out and say that everyone who looks for evidence of conspiracy is a lunatic, but it implies it.

There have been some famous conspiracies. They center around money and power. It is logical that big money and big power would be a lure for conspirators.

The following famous expression stems from a conspiracy for power in the most powerful government on earth. "Et tu, Brutus?"

OK, fair enough. Any particular specific ones you'd like us to look at the evidence for, karl?

I would tend to say that a guy named Madoff or something like that had a huge conspiracy going on... Perhaps even people inside the regulating comittees had something to do with it? He was reported like a dozen times, yet nothing was done until...

>>"Pascha" means Passover, aka. the time when Jesus died (14th of Nisan on the Hebrew calendar).<<

Indeed, however, does that ‘fact’ nullify my observation, following?



>>Easter has nothing to do with Jesus' death.<<

I’ve not made that argument; however, though the KJV translators translated the NT “Pascha” as Passover 28 times – they correctly translated “Pascha” in the one instance of Acts 12:4 "Easter" – as indicated by contextual usage: specifically, as correlate to verse 3.

>>It's celebrated at a different time,<<

Indeed; is that good or bad?

>>...with traditions that are completely pagan.<<

Pagan, in its least pejorative – is simply rustic or peasant – generally speaking, the poor. (Some what says, that Solomon’s Temple incorporated aspects of heathen temples – for instance, the pillars marking the solstices and the equinoxes. Solomon’s Temple seems to have been a facsimile of the Phoenician temples Hazor and that at Tell Tainat – both predating Solomon’s - and what was with the two winged creatures that filled the Holy of Holies?)

>>Some years Passover and Easter are around the same dates (like this year), however, other years they can be an entire month apart.<<

Oy, oy, oy.

>>So, you are right, we are to use them to determine when these "Appointed Times" are. However, we should use the Bible to determine these times, not man-made rules nor the use of equinoxes or solstices like the pagans use.<<

Indeed, and that entails reconciling all the several different calendars, yes?

>>Jesus, the disciples and the early church never celebrated Easter.<<

Indeed, it was such as Herod Agrippa of Acts 12...

>>They did, however, celebrate Passover.<<

...which was, even then, fading into obsolescence for the NT Xtian community – per Writ.

>>It wasn't until many years later that they changed Passover to Easter, and of course, the Sabbath to Sunday as well.<<

Isn’t it the argument of the .Org that such as the celebration of Pasch – was nailed to the cross?

>>See quotes below.

“The earliest Christians celebrated the Lord's Passover at the same time as the Jews, [...]

“A whole body of ‘Against the Jews’ literature was produced by leading Fathers who defamed the Jews [...] the repudiation of the Jewish reckoning of Passover and adoption of Easter-Sunday instead. Joachim Jeremias attributes such a development to ‘the inclination to break away from Judaism.’ In a similar vein, J.B. Lightfoot explains that Rome and Alexandria adopted Easter-Sunday to avoid ‘even the semblance of Judaism’”
- Samuele Bacchiocchi, God's Festival in Scripture and History, 1995, pp. 101-103<<

Ahh, the sigilism of Papal conspiracy.

How are the above quotes relevant to today’s Xtian?—isn’t it really a non-issue? Are you proposing that today’s Xtian observe the Jewish Pasch?

Xtians, rightly so, celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ and a New Testament; whereas, noting, it is Jews who continue to embrace, by and large, OT traditions/observances.

>>Catholics, Jews, bankers, right-wingers, left-wingers, Muslims...<<

Yep, alla thems. And Dem'crats too.

Karl, I think you're way off on this. Republics,like ours,don't need the allure of big money and power to attract conspiritors.---------------------------------------All the best,Al Gore

From Wikipedia on John Todd-

Todd claimed to have served as a Green Beret in the Vietnam War, but his discharge papers list him as a general clerk/typist and do not record him having been in Vietnam. Army medical reports referred to "emotional instability with pseudologica phantastica" (compulsive lying), difficulty in telling reality from fantasy, homicidal threats he had made on another, false suicide reports, and a severe personality disturbance.[13] Todd also claimed in his testimony to have murdered an officer in Germany and to have escaped prison with the help of the Illuminati, but his records show no such things occurred.[13]

Todd's speaking engagements during 1978 and 1979 generated controversy and sometimes hysteria at the churches he spoke at. Frequently, there were claims by Todd of gunshots in the parking lot or attacks on his life after the services, but there were no witnesses to confirm his claims.[1]

While Todd claimed to have left witchcraft in 1972 and converted to fundamentalist Christianity, accounts have him being baptized into a Oneness Pentecostal church in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968, and leading a Wiccan group in Ohio in 1976. When confronted with the latter by Christian evangelists, Todd said that he had gone through a period of "backsliding" during that time. However, when a number of other inconsistencies in Todd's story were reported in the evangelical Christian media, and Todd began denouncing many Christian leaders as part of the Satanic conspiracy or the Illuminati, many evangelists denounced Todd and cut off any further association. Jack Chick was the only influential evangelist to continue to defend Todd.[14]

Several evangelical Christian ministries investigated Todd's claims published articles disputing them. These included Cornerstone magazine, the Christian Research Institute, Christianity Today magazine, and the book The Todd Phenomenon by Darryl E. Hicks (with an introduction by Mike Warnke). Independent Baptist churches withdrew their speaking invitations and cut off contact.[citation needed]

I remember John Todd..I remember the tapes and I listened to him....There was no way to fact check his info....until I started adding up how many people were involved in the Illuminati....And it didn't make sense....roughly 1 in 5 was involved in the illuminati as he defined it. There were too many people as I figured it. Someone would have become disillusioned with either witchcraft, the illuminati or something and go public with it. But there was no one....There is no conspiracy to take over America on a spiritual basis....unless you want to believe it....and even then, it's still YOUR problem....

Nope. Today's Christian should not celebrate the Jewish Passover or the Pagan Easter, but should celebrate the Christian Passover. Just like Jesus and the disciples did at the last supper, which happened to be a Passover meal. However, it was a Christian passover meal with no animal sacrifice, since Jesus was the sacrifice or Passover lamb. Christians should remember the death of Jesus at the appropriate time (at passover), not at a man-made, pagan infused, Roman Catholic holiday (aka. Easter).

If they wanted holidays to worship, why didn't they just worship the biblical holidays? Why did they have to celebrate pagan holidays which the bible clearly forbids?

That's also why they gave up the 7th-day Sabbath in favour of Sunday (the day of the Sun) because they didn't want to be persecuted like the Jews. They compromised on both the Sabbath and Passover. We managed to re-claim the Sabbath many years down the road, why can't we do the same with the passover that the early Christian believers observed.

I'm not pointing fingers at any specific conspirators. I am just responding to the calumny that has been heaped upon those who would ask others to consider that a conspiracy has happened. You are an educator. Is it scientific to reject evidence simply because you don't want to believe it? I have looked at some evidence and I found it to be disturbing at best.

Watch this video and then tell me whether you think it looks like a natural consequence of the preceding events or whether it looks like it was deliberately orchestrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58h0LjdMry0

I don't think that believing, or not believing, in this kind of wickedness in high places is going to change the way endtime events play out in any way, but the evidence is very unsettling.

And, in terms of conspiracy, there is one undeniable one. The illegal drug trade in this country and in the world is run by real people who conspire with one another to promote this illegal, but very profitable business.

A United Nations publication of 1998, "Economic and Social Consequences of Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking," states that:
"With estimates of $100 billion to $110 billion for heroin, $110 billion to $130 billion for cocaine, $75 billion for cannabis and $60 billion for synthetic drugs, the probable global figure for the total illicit drug industry would be approximately $360 billion. Given the conservative bias in some of the estimates for individual substances, a turnover of around $400 billion per annum is considered realistic."

There is simply no way to deal with that much money without government and banking being involved.

"The Latin American drug cartels have stretched their tentacles much deeper into our lives than most people believe. It's possible they are calling the shots at all levels of government."
- William Colby, former CIA Director, 1995

Karl,

I looked at the video....

1] To me, it looks doctored. It appears that buildings are CGF/computer graphics...

2] Why bring down a perfectly good building?

Money. Always follow the money. The impetus for most big scandals is money, or power, or both.

The payoff to Silverstein was 4.55 billion. He had less than half a billion invested.

In 1980, Silverstein won a bid from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to construct 7 World Trade Center, to the north of the World Trade Center. Silverstein was interested in acquiring the entire World Trade Center complex, and put in a bid when the Port Authority put it up for lease in 2000. Silverstein won the bid when a deal between the initial winner and the Port Authority fell through, and he signed the lease on July 24, 2001, only weeks before the towers were destroyed in the September 11 attacks.

Soon after the September 11 attacks, Silverstein declared his intent to rebuild, though ran into dispute with his insurers over whether the attacks constituted one or two occurrences. A settlement was reached in 2004, with insurers agreeing to pay out $4.55 billion.

Actually FLO I agree with this last post of yours. I've mentioned that many times at church.

pk

We celebrate Passover. It's called "communion", "Lord's supper", or "Eucharist", depending on what church you go to.

SivartM

So then, why do we do it 4 or more times a years and never on the actual passover date? Also, why do we still acknowledge Easter if we already celebrate the passover via "communion"?

I disagree with that. Our church celebrates Easter per se. And don't get me wrong. I have no problem with that. But its not at the right time period. I know we do the "communion", but 4 times a year? Why? And again I have no problem with this either.

pk

>>...but should celebrate the Christian Passover. Just like Jesus and the disciples did at the last supper,<<

Actually, there seems to be a bit of a dichotomy in the above statement. Jesus Christ and the disciples, should they have indeed celebrated a Pasch, did so in a manner not in keeping with its strictures, but celebrated instead, as you’ve noted – a Last Supper.

>>Christians should remember the death of Jesus at the appropriate time (at passover), not at a man-made, pagan infused, Roman Catholic holiday (aka. Easter).<<

That is not Biblically required. The Xtian should reprise the Last Supper:

1 Cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1 Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

in frequent remembrance – suggesting

more than a quarterly cycle.

>>Roman Catholic holiday (aka. Easter)<<

Indeed, a holy day for assembling... A day is no more and no less than how and by what - it is endued.

"As often as ye..." is in context of the event taking place, which was passover. If, for example, we're talking about the 9/11 memorial that happens every year on September 11th, and I say "as often as you celebrate this memorial, also send uncle bob in new york a postcard" I'm not implying that you need to send uncle bob a postcard more than once a year or even at some other time of the year. It just means that whenever you celebrate the 9/11 memorial (i.e. on September 11th every year), at that time also send uncle bob a postcard.

Same goes for the passover. That's clearly what they were celebrating, the bible calls it passover. And why would Jesus say "as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of me"? Because until that point in time, they celebrated the passover as a remembrance of their deliverance from Egypt. Jesus was now changing the focus of Passover to His sacrifice instead of their deliverance from Egypt. That's all he was saying. He wasn't telling them that they should celebrate it every day, every week, every month, or every quarter. Also, if you do some historical research you'll find out that the early church kept the passover. Here are just a few quotes:


“The earliest Christians celebrated the Lord's Passover at the same time as the Jews, during the night of the first full moon of the first month of spring (Nisan 14-15). By the middle of the 2nd century, most churches had transferred this celebration to the Sunday after the Jewish feast. But certain churches of Asia Minor clung to the older custom, for which they were denounced as ‘judaizing'. The first ecumenical Council of Nicaea in 325 decreed that all churches should observe the feast together on a Sunday”
- The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th edition, Macropaedia, Vol. 4, pp. 604-605, "Church Year".

“The Quartodecimans contentiously keep Passover on one day, once per year...They keep the Passover on whichever day the fourteenth of the month falls...Christ had to be slain on the fourteenth of the month in accordance with the law”
- Epiphanius. The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Books II and III (Sects 47-80), De Fide. Section IV, Verses 1,3;1,6;2,6. Translated by Frank Williams. EJ Brill, New York, 1994, pp. 23-25).

“There is no doubt that Apollinarius was a Quartodeciman...Those who kept Passover in the evening understood it to be a repetition of the Lord's Supper”
- Stewart-Sykes A. Melito of Sardis On Pascha. St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood (NY), 2001, p. 81).

“Audians...they choose to celebrate the Passover with the Jews--that is they contentiously celebrate the Passover at the same time as the Jews are holding their Festival of Unleavened Bread. And indeed that this used to be the church's custom”
- Epiphanius. The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Books II and III (Sects 47-80), De Fide. Section VI, Verses 8,11; 9,2. Translated by Frank Williams. EJ Brill, New York, 1994, pp. 410-411.

“Anicetus argued for Easter while Polycarp, a student of the apostle John, defended observing ‘the Christian Passover, on the 14th of Nisan, the first month of the Jewish ecclesiastical calendar, regardless of the day of the week’ ”
- Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th edition, Micropaedia, Vol. 8, p. 94, "Polycarp".

>>"As often as ye..." is in context of the event taking place, which was passover.<<

Indeed, an “event” occurred in near-conjunction with the Vernal Equinox – with particulars transforming the “event” from a theretofore OT ritual to one correlating to a New Testament covenant; that is, it became parcel the sea change signified by Jesus Christ’s death.

>>If, for example, we're talking about the 9/11 memorial that happens every year on September 11th, and I say "as often as you celebrate this memorial, also send uncle bob in new york a postcard" I'm not implying that you need to send uncle bob a postcard more than once a year or even at some other time of the year. It just means that whenever you celebrate the 9/11 memorial (i.e. on September 11th every year), at that time also send uncle bob a postcard.<<

The significance of “Christ and Him crucified” and the sea change attending – as opposed to the mundane – leaves me a bit unappreciative of the proposed similitude.

>>Same goes for the passover. That's clearly what they were celebrating, the bible calls it passover.<<

There had occurred, by the time of Jesus Christ’s epiphany, many changes, which were introduced to the Jewish economy, for example: Pasch had become a celebration of 7-8 days duration – conflated with the Days of Unleavened Bread...

>>And why would Jesus say "as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of me"? Because until that point in time, they celebrated the passover as a remembrance of their deliverance from Egypt.<<

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Often is often and textually, is not constrained; otherwise, indeed...,

and at the Last Supper Jesus Christ instituted another celebration saliently more than simple remembrance of a passage from Egypt – one signifying better things; that, Xtians celebrate this season.

>>Jesus was now changing the focus of Passover to His sacrifice instead of their deliverance from Egypt. That's all he was saying.<<

Okay, it was premature of me to respond (in the above) prior to reading the immediate statement proffered...

>>He wasn't telling them that they should celebrate it every day, every week, every month, or every quarter.<<

I reprise: “Often is often.”

>>Also, if you do some historical research you'll find out that the early church kept the passover.<<

Didn’t St Paul suggest that the blood required by antitypical feasts were, post-crucifixion – in fact, nullity? Wouldn’t an ecclesiastical keeping of a fulfilled OT ritual feast conflict with the majority understanding of the cheirographon being ‘nailed to the cross’?

I agree that many of the early church judaized by observing fulfilled feasts/Types; however,

one must assume that, though not requisite, the “early church kept the passover” Biblically – as unto the Lord, much as Sunday worshippers keep Sunday, as unto the Lord, yes?

>>Here are just a few quotes:

[...]<<

Observations upon certain ‘practices’ of early Xtians do not justify keeping Pasch by Xtians – nor do they, Biblically, proscribe the Xtian observance of Easter. In fact,

a better construction can be made from Writ for observing Easter than for Pasch.

Yes! I agree the blood (aka. a physical sacrifice) is not required after Jesus' death. But the day on which they celebrated is still the same day we should commemorate the same event. Our understanding of the cheirographon in Colossians is faulty. The feasts were definitely not nailed to the cross. For more info on that topic you can read the study located at www.LawInColossians.com




They weren't judaizing, they were simply keeping the commandments in Leviticus 23. They had a "Thus sayeth the LORD", something the Sunday worshipers never had.

Very good points FLO

pk

>>Yes! I agree the blood (aka. a physical sacrifice) is not required after Jesus' death. But the day on which they celebrated is still the same day we should commemorate the same event.<<

There was the OT Ecclesiastical calendar, there was the Jewish calendar at the time of Jesus Christ’s Epiphany, and there is the present Jewish calendar. None agree.

The OT priests were the ‘keepers’ of their calendar. It is readily admitted by Jews that the present calendar is not Biblical.

>>Our understanding of the cheirographon in Colossians is faulty. The feasts were definitely not nailed to the cross. For more info on that topic you can read the study located at www.LawInColossians.com<<

I haven’t time to check-out the link tonight; however, will do so at my earliest convenience. That said, I agree, current understanding of what, exactly, cheirographon means vis-à-vis the ‘articles’ nailed to the cross – is faulty.




>>They weren't judaizing, they were simply keeping the commandments in Leviticus 23.<<

In the middle of the first century this era, the author of Hebrews wrote the following:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

>>They had a "Thus sayeth the LORD",<<

Pardon, but NO they did not have a “Thus sayeth...” - or rather, the NT Xtian did not have an applicable "Thus sayeth..."

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Gd spoke through Jeremiah with a “Thus sayeth...”

KJV Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Gd spoke through Hosea with a “Thus sayeth...”

Gd removed the calendrical reckoning from both of the confederated Houses of Israel - Judah and Ephraim.

>>something the Sunday worshipers never had.<<

Indeed, rather, the Sunday worshipers were confronted with an outstanding epistemological lacuna, which they filled with remembrance of the Saviour’s death and resurrection; that is Sunday observance.

Biblically, both observors may be correct, depending...

upon understanding and/or conviction.

These verses seem to be taken out of context. The former verse is speaking of all the terrible things that the presently captive Jews went through. With them captive in Babylon, there's no one left in Zion to continue the solemn feasts and sabbaths, and they are therefore being forgotten there. That's the consequences of what they've done. It, by no means, it trying to indicate that the LORD's feasts and sabbaths (Lev. 23) were something negative that needed to be taken out of the way.

Actually, in Leviticus 23, which says "These are the feasts of the LORD", and then goes on to list the weekly sabbath, followed by the yearly sabbaths. The feasts there are constantly referred to as HIS (God's) feasts, not anyone else's. So, that begs the question of who's "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths" the passage in Hosea is referring to. Verse 2 says "For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband!", God is speaking about His unfaithful people. So when we read about "her feast days, her new moons..." in verse 11, it is clearly NOT the same ones that are spoken of in Leviticus 23, because those ones are HIS, not hers.

If you read the whole chapter (Hosea 2) it mentions their (or her) Baal worship practices, which means that they probably started mixing pagan practices with HIS feasts, and that's when they became their (or her) feasts. God's Feasts are pure and holy, and that's how He wants them kept. Once we start mixing pagan forms on worship with His Holy days, then we're not celebrating His Holy days anymore, but someone else's. That's why we need to separate ourselves from this ridiculous holiday called Easter, and start celebrating it as the Christian Passover, like the disciples and the early believers did.

Also, I agree that the modern rabbinical jewish calendar is far removed from the calendar described in the bible. However, for those who care to know, there are people that actually observe the biblical calendar. The Karaites are just one example. (http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml). Karaites are, i believe, the jewish equivalent of the protestants. They reject the rabbinical authority (just like the protestants reject the papal authority) and use the scriptures as their only basis of authority, thus they also reject the modern jewish calendar and instead have reverted back to using the biblical calendar. So yeah, my point is that with a little research, anyone can be keeping the biblical calendar, you don't need to be an OT priest to do so.

>>These verses seem to be taken out of context.<<

Per the use of “context” as device: though resorting to it occasionally, I usually attempt to avoid it – as it seems to suggest more of a ‘default’ position rather – than otherwise.

>>The former verse is speaking of all the terrible things that the presently captive Jews went through. With them captive in Babylon, there's no one left in Zion to continue the solemn feasts and sabbaths, and they are therefore being forgotten there.<<

Indeed; however, I’d ask for the subsequent and substantiating verses which would advise the Biblical expositor – that the verse is no more than contextual and that the OT Ecclesiastical calendar has since been restored to the Jews – certain of Nehemiah’s actions notwithstanding.

It is common stipulation by Jews that the present calendar is not Biblical; I’d further ask – when, then, was the Jew’s calendar actually “forgotten” – as opposed to ‘neglect’ per se?

An argument from hermeneutics may be posited that – from the actualization of Gd’s curse until restoration – seven ‘times’ (2520 years) passes over the cursed; at which time, a construction might be made for ‘restoration’.

>>That's the consequences of what they've done. It, by no means, it trying to indicate that the LORD's feasts and sabbaths (Lev. 23) were something negative that needed to be taken out of the way.<<

Indeed not; the “feasts and sabbaths” were not intrinsically “negative”. As far as the Seventh-day Sabbath..., I’ve already proposed that Writ advises us Gd removed the Seventh-day Sabbath to prevent its continuing profanation before the heathen and to preserve its hallowedness. Therefor, Gd secreted its calendrical reckoning – until such time – as the millennial reign.

>>Actually, in Leviticus 23, which says "These are the feasts of the LORD", and then goes on to list the weekly sabbath, followed by the yearly sabbaths. The feasts there are constantly referred to as HIS (God's) feasts, not anyone else's.<<

“What the King giveth, the King taketh.”

The foregoing is axiomatic; nevertheless, the yearly feasts continued, with Gd only – being aware of the exactness, that they, in their appointed time, might be fulfilled. Being fulfilled,

there remains no continuance... What’s that say about the Autumnal Feasts?

>>So, that begs the question of who's "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths" the passage in Hosea is referring to.<<

Whilst the “feasts, new moons, and sabbaths” remained, they’re both Gd’s and the COI’s – as Gd had given the “feasts, new moons, and sabbaths”; no, not quite true – had commanded them.

>>Verse 2 says "For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband!", God is speaking about His unfaithful people. So when we read about "her feast days, her new moons..." in verse 11, it is clearly NOT the same ones that are spoken of in Leviticus 23, because those ones are HIS, not hers.<<

Without presently parsing the above, recall that Hosea was prophesying to the Northern Kingdom of Ephraim. Do the tribes of that kingdom currently practice observance of the “feasts, new moons, and sabbaths” of Hosea 2:11?—or have they, for the past several millennia? If so, where?

It is prima facie that the OT Ecclesiastical calendar was removed from the tribes of the Northern Confederacy. It no longer exists and has not since their collapse, captivity, and subsequent migrations...

>>If you read the whole chapter (Hosea 2) it mentions their (or her) Baal worship practices, which means that they probably started mixing pagan practices with HIS feasts, and that's when they became their (or her) feasts. God's Feasts are pure and holy, and that's how He wants them kept. Once we start mixing pagan forms on worship with His Holy days, then we're not celebrating His Holy days anymore, but someone else's. That's why we need to separate ourselves from this ridiculous holiday called Easter, and start celebrating it as the Christian Passover, like the disciples and the early believers did.<<

I urge – that we not conflate Ephraim with Judah...

>>Also, I agree that the modern rabbinical jewish calendar is far removed from the calendar described in the bible. However, for those who care to know, there are people that actually observe the biblical calendar. The Karaites are just one example. (http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml). Karaites are, i believe, the jewish equivalent of the protestants. They reject the rabbinical authority (just like the protestants reject the papal authority) and use the scriptures as their only basis of authority, thus they also reject the modern jewish calendar and instead have reverted back to using the biblical calendar. So yeah, my point is that with a little research, anyone can be keeping the biblical calendar, you don't need to be an OT priest to do so.<<

I agree that the Karaites observe to their own contentment; however, aside from their determination of exactly when the new moon occurs over Jerusalem and when the barley is ripe unto the harvest, etc...

They’ve not established whether the solar calendar the OT COI used was one of 360 days, 365 days, or one of 365¼ days incorporating interstices – for instance:

How do they reconcile, should Nisan 14 occur upon a Wednesday, their buying, selling, and carting of goats and lambs upon a Saturday, Nisan 10? Seems to me that the only condition allowing same – would be a calendar incorporating

an interstice; otherwise, the proscription against working upon the Sabbath becomes problematic.

you jest, correct?

if not, the writer was refering to the OT Jewish feasts and festivals. ie; Biblical observances found in Leviticus. In otherwords; Without any pagan origin. Capisce?

You just hit Paydirt!

So True and so sad.
This is one of the biggest conspiracies in the US.


Just follow the money trail. This partly how black OP's fund.


The problem with the word "conspiracy" is the media has magically attached the word "theory" at times without even using it. So the mind is prepped or conditioned to debunk the conspirators when in fact the whole 'story' is just that and "bunk".
Reminds me of the text that says that the devil 'deceives' the whole world...

Karl, You have to understand the first line of accepting truth is denial. (no offense Neil) It's just how we rationalize or how we are wired.

BTW, since you are so spot on the facts regarding Silverstein and the whole episode, here is a link I think you might like if you haven't seen it. It's a lecture done a few years back by a Professor of economics in Canada.
Enjoy.
Click here > War and Globalization
It kind of sets the background for our current world crisis.

When they started calculating their calendars as opposed to doing it the biblical way (watching for the new moon). You can go online and find out when passover is in the year 2099, because the Jews now calculate their calendar. This is not the biblical way.




Why did the apostles, Paul and the early church still observe the Seventh-day Sabbath then?




Both Ephraim and Judah fell into pagan practices, which polluted God's Appointed Times. Non-Jews still celebrate "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths", they just referred to them differently. For example, the majority of Christians observe Christmas and Easter as their major feast days, January 1st is probably the most popular start of a month (aka new moon), and most observe Sunday as their sabbath. In North America and in most parts of the world, these are official Holidays. So, whoever the people of Ephraim turned into in modern times, they surely observe some sort of "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths" just like the majority of the world does, and chances are, that they are a far cry from the ones God commanded us to observe in Lev 23.




From what I know, they don't use the solar calendar at all. They rely on the sun only for when the days begin and end. The months, and the years are based on the moon. Instead of adding an extra day every 4 years like we do to compensate for the 365.25 days, they add an extra month every so often (obviously not as often as every 4 years). It is always based on the moon, not the sun.

>>When they started calculating their calendars as opposed to doing it the biblical way (watching for the new moon).<<

Indeed, as attested to by witnesses and verified by priests – who determined the days and seasons of the Ecclesiastical calendar. Disabuse me should I err, but did not the beginning of Nisan/Abib also depend upon the condition of the barley harvest?—if so, then sometimes, an additional ‘month’ was immediately inserted into the calendar – should the harvest be late...

The above being so, Seventh-day Sabbaths were tied to the Feasts.

>>You can go online and find out when passover is in the year 2099, because the Jews now calculate their calendar. This is not the biblical way.<<

Indeed; yet, there are the hubrists who insist only upon an ability to recycle a count of seven!—whilst snarking at all else...



>>Why did the apostles, Paul and the early church still observe the Seventh-day Sabbath then?<<

They dwelt within the Jewish economy – with Writ adjuring against egregious behaviour (offense). St Paul expanded upon that premise with the admonition that whatsover is sold in the shambles eat - even the local version of grilled shish kapork... [paraphrased]



>>Both Ephraim and Judah fell into pagan practices, which polluted God's Appointed Times. Non-Jews still celebrate "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths",<<

I point you back to my quote with the edited/bolded definite article, which is a bit of a remove from any ol’ feast, moon, or holiday...

>>For example, the majority of Christians observe Christmas and Easter as their major feast days,<<

1 Cor 9:22 ...I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

>>So, whoever the people of Ephraim turned into in modern times,<<

It is my belief that, for the most part, the former confederated tribes of Ephraim/Israel are today, primarily the Caucasians: Jews from Abraham and Judah’s loins are, necessarily, to be found closely associated with and where there is a sceptre – according to Holy Writ.

>>...a far cry from the ones God commanded us to observe in Lev 23.<<

As is so much that is OT - or, per Feasts, have had their fulfillment in Type.



>>From what I know, they don't use the solar calendar at all.<<

Sorry, I was under the impression that they did: some what says, that their solar calendar was one which dealt with civil matters.

Hear, hear. And the wisest there ever was, at least up to that time, married 600 wives so I'm suggesting wisdom is very fleeting in the lives of fallen human beings who believe wisdom emanates from themselves.

"...and of Him ye -- ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption"1 Corinthians 1:30 YLT
Blessings!

Is there anyone "perfectly normal" and can you be that, and still be intelligent when believing "stupid conspiracies", other than in one's own eyes?
Just asking.

Good question and point LHC. :)

pk

This says volumes! Remember Chick Publications and those comic-type tracts they passed around?

I perceive perhaps there is some misconception as to the wiles of the archenemy and his ability to place within men who know not Jesus as Love and Lord of Life, the most diabolical schemes for the destruction of the body of Christ, God's masterpiece on this earth, not to exclude those who serve Christ not yet knowing what Master they serve, in flagrant opposition to the building up of the kingdom of darkness.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:12 NKJV

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"Matthew 25:37-41 KJV

I personally have been made aware of the nefarious exploits documented above and have every good reason to believe in the reality of such machinations, believing them to be biblically revealed and no doubt only hitting upon a portion of the cruelty manifested by those who would be their own gods.

OTOH I prefer to spend more of my time in the Word, with Him Who is the Supreme Master of souls, and with those of whom He has brought into His Kingdom on earth, waiting and oftentimes working to usher in the Kingdom of heaven.

I'm glad, as a result of learning from the Word, the aforementioned had been made plain previously, so that when it did occur it was another evidence revealed, another sign of Jesus early return and only necessary to be strengthened to meet rather than something to be feared.

Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.
1 Peter 4:11-13 NKJV
Blessings!!

I do not believe the towers magically collapsed, and I am still of the opinion that it was not any American born citizen who conspired to attack and collapse the world trade center, not that there couldn't be someone guilty, born in America, as witness Timothy McVeigh and the Murrah Building in OK.
OTOH I have a theory that there was probably a contingency plan devised at the time when the (was it 104 floors?)were built, in which the possibility that the building could fall sideways under certain adverse circumstances, hopefully never to happen.

In light of that possibility, would it be wise to gain some control as soon as possible of an otherwise out of control circumstance, to cause the building to fall in its' own footprint rather than some other ongoing disastrous developing circumstance that could have gone on for an unknown long period of time with all of its' attendant unknown perilous smaller events.

Was not even the atomic bombs dropped by American planes on enemy territory, dropped with the knowledge that millions of lives would be saved as a result of the seemingly heartless deed done to a few hundred thousand in order to bring to an end the horrendous slaughter being perpetrated day by day on both sides of the struggle, which was forecast to probably last for as long as another four years?

In my estimation, while not equating at all a likeness to the way God might operate, did not our Father in heaven put into affect what could be considered a "heartless deed", to cast a third of the angels out of the safety of the heavenly kingdom in order to save the remaining 2/3rds. All we as human beings can do is to conjecture how many lives might be saved by a preemptive strike, based on the best evidence available, while our Father, knowing the end from the beginning, hazarded His own Son's loss for eternity, that some, Who would have been lost for eternity, would have a chance to be saved.

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!" Romans 11:33 AMP
Blessings!!

"Owe nothing to anyone—except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God’s law. For the commandments say, “You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not covet.”These—and other such commandments—are summed up in this one commandment: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law.

This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is almost gone; the day of salvation will soon be here. So remove your dark deeds like dirty clothes, and put on the shining armor of right living. Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don’t let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires."Romans 13:8-14 NLT

And the principle we use as our guide, I suppose, is to pick and choose the part of the Holy Scriptures that agrees with
our vast store of wisdom?
Regards!!