#343929 - 2010-03-13 12:02:35
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: RLH]
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I have already made 100 posts, seems iike I just started
Registered: 2010-03-12
Posts: 176
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Archie: This is my first post on Club Adventist. I haven't read every page on this thread. I hope you don't mind me jumping in and participating.
I believe "war in heaven" is real and not metaphorical. Whether it was a war of words or weapons or both I don't know. I suspect it was both. The evil angels were, after all, cast out of heaven. I doubt they left willingly. To this day, under certain circumstances, evil angels flee the presence of holy angels. I suppose it's because they are afraid, and I doubt they are afraid of words. Do they wield literal swords? I don't know. Do "swords" symbolize weapons? Probably. But I can't say what kind or what it looks like.
Has God ever destroyed sinners? Ellen White thought so.
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}
Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}
Richard: Amen Archie, and welcome to the forum! Thank you. The quote above didn't elicit much discussion. Has it already been considered? Who "drowned the vast world" if not God? Who inflicted "punishment" on Lot's sons-in-law if not God?
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#343938 - 2010-03-13 12:47:06
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: Archie777]
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Mr. Murphy's daddy
Registered: 2009-07-07
Posts: 19000
Loc: North Carolina
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Good questions Archie. The folks here that believe God has never destroyed anything, claim that they have found a "universal principle" in the writings of EGW, that negates all of her other quotes, and any Bible texts that say God has or will destroy. (LOL, I know what you're thinking)
A fellow called Mountain Man, from another forum, used that exact same quote you did, and I borrowed it, and brought it here. Of course it was met with the same kind of nonsense that every other quote is, that denies their position.
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. {EW 294}
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
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#343943 - 2010-03-13 13:01:18
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: RLH]
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Registered: 2001-07-14
Posts: 21388
Loc: Columbia, SC
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they have found a "universal principle" in the writings of EGW.... Incorrect....In the Bible. My favorite is as follows: Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'BTW, you've never answered me on the following: Ex 4:11 The Lord said to him [Moses], "Who made the human mouth? Who makes him mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Does God cause His children to be born death, blind and mute?
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified"
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#343946 - 2010-03-13 13:13:09
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 2007-03-16
Posts: 5537
Loc: Canada
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No one understands all the mysteries in the Bible....No one. And in speaking of God's agape, Paul says, "we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see [God] face to face."
Concerning this topic there are two schools of thought:
1] God kills
2] God doesn't kill
Both parties have their evidence...neither side as the leg up on the other....So, what do we do?
For me I have sided on # 2. It makes sense even though there seems to be counter evidence. In my mind God can't be both...He can't love his enemies with an "everlasting love"...He can't love us more than Himself and at the same time payback evil with evil.
No matter how you twist it, in my mind, if it is evil for me to burn someone for many days, it is evil for God to do so. You will never, in a billion years, get me to synthesize the two. If I must err I must err on the side of God's everlasting love - a love where God loves His enemies more than Himself.
So for God to be directly responsible for the destruction of his fallen, unbelieving children troubles me. Hence, as I said, I must err on the side of mercy and love. I can do no other.
Does this mean that God's fallen, unbelieving children will not perish? No, but not directly of God's doing. God releases those who persist in unbelief...but it wounds His heart with a sorrow that we cannot understand.
Rob ________________________ Amen!
Edited by skyblue888 (2010-03-13 13:14:01)
_________________________
"The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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#343947 - 2010-03-13 13:13:39
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: Robert]
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I have already made 100 posts, seems iike I just started
Registered: 2010-03-12
Posts: 176
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Richard, is there a strong God does not destroy presence on this forum? Do they see everything harmonizing with one basic principle? Or, do they accept that God has other ways of accomplishing His goals?
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#343948 - 2010-03-13 13:23:26
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: Archie777]
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I have already made 100 posts, seems iike I just started
Registered: 2010-03-12
Posts: 176
|
No matter how you twist it, in my mind, if it is evil for me to burn someone for many days, it is evil for God to do so. You will never, in a billion years, get me to synthesize the two. If I must err I must err on the side of God's everlasting love - a love where God loves His enemies more than Himself.
So for God to be directly responsible for the destruction of his fallen, unbelieving children troubles me. Hence, as I said, I must err on the side of mercy and love. I can do no other.
Does this mean that God's fallen, unbelieving children will not perish? No, but not directly of God's doing. God releases those who persist in unbelief...but it wounds His heart with a sorrow that we cannot understand. Are you 100% certain you are right about God? Do you have "the leg up" on those who believe He will punish and destroy the wicked at the end of time? Or, are you merely hoping you're right? What if you're wrong? Would you be happy spending eternity knowing God punished and destroyed millions of men, women, and children? Or, would you be so devastated you'd rather die? Just how certain are you that you're right? Are you faithful enough to survive the risk?
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#343953 - 2010-03-13 13:36:56
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: Archie777]
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Registered: 2001-07-14
Posts: 21388
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Are you 100% certain you are right about God? Are you 100% certain? Do you have "the leg up" on those who believe He will punish and destroy the wicked at the end of time? Never said that....Do you? Or, are you merely hoping you're right? I err on the side of mercy and love....Love does no wrong to its neighbor. In fact God loves His enemies....Burning someone in fire for many days isn't justice or love. It's sadism. What if you are wrong? Would you be happy spending eternity knowing God punished and destroyed millions of men, women, and children? Not really...but apparently God will explain those hard to understand verses....If not, then iniquity would arise a second time, huh? Just how certain are you that you're right? How certain are you? You know, you are coming off very egotistical. The Bible is complex....It was written over thousands of years....There's a lot you and I do not know.
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified"
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#343959 - 2010-03-13 13:44:14
Re: "war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?
[Re: Robert]
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Mr. Murphy's daddy
Registered: 2009-07-07
Posts: 19000
Loc: North Carolina
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My favorite is as follows:
Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' You call this a universal principle? Look at it in it's context. God is speaking to Moses about the children of Israel, and what is getting ready to happen to them, because they have turned to idols. It has nothing to do with the final destruction of the wicked.
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