One of the 1st defenses for the existence of god is the complexity of life and the lack of any proof of origin from any non god source.

This complexity can refer to the existence of thought, consciousness, logic, ethics, morality, and whole host of deeply complex and mysterious aspects of being.

Now if we are going to say that the complexity of life in all these different forms is evidence of god's creation then maybe we can put some other things on the list.

Why did evil arise?

As far as I know no one has been able to determine what possible motivation a perfect being might have to do something evil.

Deep mystery. God must have created it.

Why is there suffering?

As far as I know, no one has been able to determine why suffering would be included in a perfect creation.

Deep mystery. God must have created it.

Why is there death in the whole universe in a perfect creation?

Deep mystery. God must have created it.

Now before you say any of these were Satan's fault, you might consider the implications. If any of these were not god's creation, then Satan would have creative power.

Or if neither created it, then a separate power of naturalism must be in play.

Or maybe there are a whole bunch of gods we don't know about.

Or something else?

CARDW

yes these are good questions

but as for as death and suffering the
bible is very clear that once Satan
rebelled these came in to existance

as for as how a perfect creation rebelled

well that is a mystery but again the
bible says that it happened so we must
accept that the bible is true.....if we dont then
GOD is a lier.....

I DONT think GOD is a lier

dgrimm60

As far as death is concerned the question is how would the earth survive without it.

Does all plant life simply stop growing?

When we eat does every bit of nutrition get consumed leaving no waste?

Do plants die when we eat them?

How does population control happen?

Death seems to be a natural part of the universal eco system.

Stars die, galaxies are torn apart by supernovas, and all kinds of massive destruction is observed in the heavens.

Do we answer this by saying God said it, so I believe it?

Have you ever considered that the Bible simply is an account of solutions proposed by Iron Age men trying to make sense of the world with the knowledge they had?

CARDW

before ADAM AND EVE sined there was no death
sin effect not just people but all animals and all
plant life....

the bible is GODS letters to the human race
and showing how GOD deals with people

the bible is more that a history of people---
it is a health book---a book dealing with morals---
a book dealing the right and wrong...a book with
solutions for peoples problems... the bible also
answer the purpose of life...

dgrimm60

I like what you've said here dgrimm. It makes sense to me.

cardw I'm not sure the title of the thread makes sense to me? What I mean is the way its worded. Maybe there's a word missing or misspelled, etc.

pk

pkrause,

I probably should have placed quotes around "universal logic absolutes"

There is a whole line of discussion under the thread
Christianity: The only religion that makes sense of the world?

Well death is not limited simply to this earth, we can see it in the heavens. Stars die and go supernova, Galaxies collide, etc. etc.

How would an earth run if there was not death?

I agree that death is not limited to only our earth. I believe its limited to our piece of the vast universe.

pk

or perhaps the death we think we see is merely creation at work?

It could also be that though death is a critical part of our environment today it has undergone thousands of years of degradation. What was termed then as death we would laugh to scorn. The slow move of our world into a deathly state is just more proof that at one point there used to be a state where death did not exist.